Eurovision vs. The Champions League

This week is a bonanza for fans of Europe's two favourite competitions: the Champions League football tournament and the Eurovision Song Contest. Both are held up as events that bring Europeans together, but which one does the job better? This week we aim to settle the debate once and for all with a face-off between sports commentator Barbara Barend and Eurovision historian Dean Vuletic. We're also talking about a €300-million EU pension black hole and France's first rap awards.

Do you live in Europe, and do you enjoy this podcast? If so, you can celebrate democracy and fund our show at the same time, by signing up to join the Capital of European Democracy jury. It only takes a few clicks and it's a huge help to us! Sign up here before May 15: https://join.capitalofdemocracy.eu/europeanspod

The Eurovision vs. Champions League debate was part of a special event for Europe Day hosted by the European Cultural Foundation. You can find out more about this year's celebrations at europeday.eu.

Photos of Europe Day Event: Xander Remkes

This week's Isolation Inspiration: 'King Charles III's Secret Kingdom' and 'If Found'. You can find the article Katy mentioned on the Flamme awards here in the Guardian, and the ECF's Radio Europe Day playlist here on Spotify. 

00:22 Beyoncé in the Brussels bubble

03:49 Bad Week: A €300m pensions black hole

13:25 Good Week: France's first rap awards

18:39 Help us out by joining the European Capital of Democracy Jury!

20:23 The ultimate debate: Eurovision vs The Champions League

37:46 Isolation Inspiration: 'King Charles III's Secret Kingdom' and 'If Found'

40:54 Happy Ending: Aurimas Valujavičius's epic journey

Thanks for listening! If you enjoy our podcast and would like to help us keep making it, we'd love it if you'd consider chipping in a few bucks a month at ⁠patreon.com/europeanspodcast⁠ (many currencies are available). You can also help new listeners find the show by ⁠leaving us a review⁠ or giving us five stars on Spotify. 

Producer: Katy Lee

Mixing and mastering: Wojciech Oleksiak

Music: Jim Barne and Mariska Martina

Twitter | Instagram | hello@europeanspodcast.com

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

INTRODUCTION - 00’22”

DOMINIC: Listeners, Katy is in Amsterdam this week and apparently doesn't have time to see me. I think we might be in a podcast crisis.

KATY: To my credit, I am literally in town – for a very exciting event, which you're going to hear about in a second – then I'm going to sleep, then I'm getting back on the train, and going back to Paris so that my students can have their exam. There *is* no time, Dominic!

D: Mmm.

K: If it makes you feel any better. I'm then coming back to Amsterdam later in the week, so we'll see each other then. That's true. I've got a lot to look forward to, actually, at the end of this week, because I'm also going to be heading into the Brussels bubble on Sunday, to see arguably the leader of the free world.

K: Oh yeah?

D: Beyoncé Knowles. Who is just opening her Renaissance tour this week in Stockholm, and then I'm going to see her in Brussels. I really couldn't be more excited.

K: Have Beyoncé and the Brussels bubble ever been mentioned before together in the same breath?

D: Probably not. That's what this podcast is here for.

K: There you go. The Europeans, the podcast that brings you, every week, the least boring things have happened around the continent. And actually quite a big thing happened in our home country of the UK over the weekend. I'm assuming you were glued to television coverage of the coronation of our new king?

D: I did watch a bit of the coronation ceremony, actually.

K: Well done.

D: And it was a bit boring.

K: I went out to lunch and forgot about it, to be honest.

D: Did you?

K: Yeah. Ironically I was probably less excited than the average French person about it. It's very strange, this country is famously proud of its revolutionary, anti-monarchy traditions, but French people love talking about the royal family. So many people have asked me this week, like, ‘Oh, are you going home for the coronation?’

D: Yeah, Dutch people love it too, more than I do. Although I did love the music. I was really moved, actually, by some of the amazing choral music. It really showed the best in British musical culture. So yeah, I was quite proud of that.

K: Well, perhaps that should be all we say about the coronation, we're thankfully gonna be talking about other stuff this week. What have we got coming up on the show this week, Dominic?

D: Well, my weekend ahead is already exciting because of Beyoncé. But it's doubly exciting because it's also going to be the grand finale of Eurovision this weekend, so it really might be the best weekend of my life. But I don't want to scare all you Eurovision haters off this episode, so I want to clarify at this stage that we are having a completely Eurovision-free Good Week Bad Week, you'll be happy to hear. That comes up in a moment. But instead of our normal interview slot after that, we're going to be hosting a debate with at least a touch of Eurovision in it. I say ‘we’ but actually it's Katy alone hosting a debate – I was unfortunately not free to join her.

K: You're the one who wasn't free to hang out with *me* this week, Dominic!

D: Well, you know… Okay, there's a bit of truth in that. Anyway, Katy was at the Tolhuistuin in Amsterdam as part of the European Cultural Foundation’s Europe Day celebrations. And that happened this week on Tuesday, the ninth of May. You may have missed it, but it's actually quite a nice thing to celebrate. We'll be talking about that a bit more later, and Katy will be moderating a debate with the big question of our time: What has done more to contribute towards shared European sentiment, the Champions League or the Eurovision Song Contest? That's coming up later on in the show, but first, it's time for Good Week, Bad Week.

BAD WEEK - 03’49”

K: Who has had a bad week?

D: Okay, I'm giving Bad Week to the European Parliament, who are in a bit of a pickle because a top-up pension fund for members of the European Parliament is going to go bankrupt by 2025 at the latest. This is according to an investigation by Investigate Europe, which was published last week and was flagged up to me by one of our lovely Patreon supporters – thank you, Federico. You may be wondering, why should I care if a top-up pension fund for members of the European Parliament goes bankrupt? It's not even their main pension fund. And my answer to you would be because you, if you're an EU citizen, may have to pay for that bailout.

K: Oh. Well how much money is this going to set us back?

D: Well, the deficit for this pension fund is estimated to be a bit over 300 million euros.

K: That sounds like lots. 

D: It is.

K: And what is one of these top-up pension funds? You might be able to hear by my bafflement that I don't actually have one.

D: Well, this top-up pension thing was started in 1991. And at the time, there was no

common pension system for MEPs, so the pensions that MEPs ended up with at retirement depended on whatever their national systems were – some would end up with a lot, therefore, others with very little. So this top-up pension fund meant that people could supplement whatever their pension deal was in their home country. And actually, a common pension fund did eventually emerge in 2009. And at that point, the top-up fund was then closed for any new members.

K: So how many MEPs – or ex-MEPs, I guess – are expected to get money out of this top-up fund when they retire? 

D: According to the reporting, the fund has around 900 beneficiaries, which is mostly former MEPs. But yeah, there are still 21 MEPs, who are still serving, who must have been MEPs from before 2009. 

K: And how much money could they actually expect to get when they retire? 

D: Well, this is where my eyeballs almost popped out of my head when reading this reporting. Because it depends, obviously, on how long you've been paying into the fund. But if you paid in for the maximum 19-year period, and you retired, say in 2022, you would receive a chunky 6800 euros per month. And that's just the top-up pension.

K: What?! 

D: I know! What can you even do with that money when you've retired?

K: Oh my God. Like, as a salary that would be amazing.

D: Right? And I'll say this again: it's on top of whatever other pension they already have. If they also have the standard MEPs’ pension which came in in 2009, then they could be making up to a grand total of 14,000 euros per month.

K: And sorry, just to clarify – you've said it's too late for me to become an MEP and actually get money from this fund? 

D: Er yes, to actually make money from that fund, it's too late.

K: Dammit.

D: But you could still become an MEP and make a huge amount of money. I was looking it up and their salary is just under 10,000 euros per month pre-tax.

K: It's a lot of train journeys to Strasbourg though, isn't it?

D: Yeah.

K: Not sure I can be arsed.

D: I respect that. And of course, I should make it very clear – not everyone will have paid into these two funds for the maximum 19 years. Some will be making the minimum from these two funds, having only paid into them for five years, and then they'll end up with a lot less – they'll end up with 1800 for the top-up and 1700 per month for the general pension/

K: Poor things.

D: Poor things. But with these potentially enormous figures, you can understand why this fund is now close to bankruptcy, especially considering they stopped accepting new people to pay into the fund in 2009. MEPs only had to pay into this top fund for five years, and later only two years, to receive this type of extra pension from the age of 65 for the rest of their lives. There was one particularly striking fact in this reporting, which is that with such high entitlements for some MEPs, MEPs can make back the money they paid into the fund within only four years of retirement. It's really extraordinary and shocking, considering Europeans on average get 60 to 70% of their working income during retirement. And of course, what with all these freelancers in Europe today who don't necessarily have pensions, and with the global pension crisis, I guess it will be a lot less than 60 to 70% of your income as a pension for more and more people as every day goes by. 

K: Do we actually have the names of the MEPs and former MEPs who were lucky enough to sign up for this pension fund?

D: We don't know exactly who is getting what amount, and the journalists don't have a list of every name. But more than half of them were published by Investigate Europe. And there are a few eye-catching names in there. For example, Nigel Farage. Remember him?

K: Aha! I thought he didn't like the EU very much?

D: If you're lucky enough not to know who Nigel Farage is, then he was kind of the architect of Brexit, he led the UK Independence Party. And yeah, it's pretty painful irony that he will continue to benefit from EU taxpayer money once he turns 65. The far-right French politician Marine Le Pen is also involved in this fund. But it's not only far-right politicians, there are also some serving politicians such as Josep Borrell, the EU foreign affairs chief, and at least two current serving EU commissioners.

K: And sorry, why would the European Parliament decide to bail this fund out?

D: Well, that's an interesting question, because this fund was set up as a private company in Luxembourg when it was launched in 1991. And there was some ambiguity about who would be responsible for any potential future deficit. In 2003 the parliament's Budget Committee voted on a resolution saying that taxpayers should *not* be responsible for any potential deficit. But the Bureau, which is the Parliament’s internal body responsible for

budget and staffing issues, made up of like 20 high-ranking MEPs – they decided in 2009 that the European Parliament would, in fact, guarantee future pensions. And guess what? At least 15 of the 20 who were at that meeting were either involved at the time in the top-up pension fund or had been historically, and nobody declared a conflict of interest.

K: That is so bad!

D: It is so bad. It is also the Bureau who will now decide what to do now that the fund is in trouble. And the Bureau these days isn't so packed with people who are involved in the top-up pension fund, but there are at least three MEPs sitting in the Bureau who are still beneficiaries of the fund.

K: And what options do they actually have for what they do next? 

D: Apparently the Bureau is looking at three different options. One would be a full bailout of the fund. It'd be a very happy day for Nigel Farage and Marine Le Pen and Josep Borrell. Not such a good day for the taxpayers, though. Another option would be not to bail out and for the remaining funds to just be divided amongst the members and say, sorry guys, you're not getting the rest of your top-up pension. And the third option sits somewhere in-between – a partial bailout and a reduction in the pension payouts for retirees. And apparently this is the option that the Bureau wants to look further into at the moment. But I shouldn't forget to mention that EU taxpayers have already paid a lot of money to subsidise this top-up pension fund. Between 1991 and 2009 the Parliament was paying two euros for every one euro an MEP put into this fund, meaning around 118 million euros of taxpayers’ money has already gone into this fund. And it's not for nothing that some MEPs are up in arms about how this top-up pension was set up. MEPs from opposite sides of the political spectrum, actually. A German Green MEP said to the reporters from Investigate Europe that the fund was set up with almost criminal strength, despite being doomed to fail. And on the other side of the political coin, there was a German conservative MEP who spoke to them saying these pension payments from the extra fund are a form of theft that is truly scandalous. And yeah, it's all obviously very much not a good look, especially considering the enormous alleged bribery scandal that's going on in Parliament at the moment – this scandal that suggests some MEPs were bribed by Qatar and Morocco to influence EU decisions. So we're still waiting to hear the news about what the Bureau decides. But in the meantime, I am giving the European Parliament bad week this week because this pension mess is not only just not a good look – it seems to me to undermine the institution's democratic function, especially with these allegations that the initial committee who made the Parliament responsible for the deficit was full of MEPs who themselves were benefiting from that decision.

K: Exactly.

D: So, a bit maddening.

K: I am torn between being absolutely furious about this, and daydreaming about what I would do with 14 grand a month if I’d already retired. The life I would lead.

D: It’s funny you said that – I also had this thing of like, ‘Oh, why didn't I decide to become an MEP? Then I was like, no!

K: – In 1994.

D: I was only six. Cheer me up with Good Week. Who’s had a good week, Katy?

GOOD WEEK - 13’25”

K: I'm giving Good Week to French rap music. If you're hearing this on Thursday, the day this podcast comes out, tonight is a massive night for the French rap industry. Because for the first time ever, this absolutely huge music genre is getting its own award ceremony, the Flamme Awards. The awards have been set up by two online magazines that cover urban music, and I think Spotify are quite heavily involved in it too, actually.

D: Rap is like super popular in France, right?

K: Yeah. So France is actually the second biggest market for rap music in the world after the United States.

D: Oh, wow.

K: Yeah. And I guess it kind of makes sense, because, you know, despite us being the nation of égalité, this is still a country with huge racial inequalities and a massive population of immigrant descent. So there's plenty to rap about. But I guess the weird thing about rap in France is that it's still quite widely considered to be non-mainstream music, but that is super out of sync with reality. Last year, more than half of the top 20 albums in France were rap albums. Rap also accounted for 65% of French streaming last year. But on the radio, it doesn't get a look in – it only represents 12% of the music that gets played on the radio. I'm pinching all of these figures, by the way, from an article about the Flamme Awards by the journalist Anissa Rami, I'll link to that in the show notes. But I think… I don't know. I mean, I always get into trouble when I talk about racism in France on this podcast, but I'm gonna say this anyway: I think the fact that rap is considered by large parts of white French society to be niche, when it isn't – it's kind of emblematic of a wider problem that we see in France. France is famously proud of presenting itself as a colour-blind society. So that means that we supposedly don't see people's skin colour here. And there's this really strong instinct that we should be one united country with one united culture, and if you want to do something that celebrates your particular ethnic heritage, it can be a little bit controversial. It's seen as divisive, or even at worse, separatist in some way. And I think that that often results in stuff from immigrant culture being sidelined and being ruled out of ever being considered mainstream. And it's not just music – you also see it in stuff like food. I've always found it really interesting when I peruse the aisles of a big French supermarket, compared to the UK – if you do go to a big supermarket in the UK, there's a pretty decent range of, like, Asian food products, Eastern European products, Caribbean ones. In France, that offering is limited to – for Asian food, I'm caricaturing a little bit here, but like there might be maybe one or two very sad, cheap brands of noodles and a very small, very expensive bottle of soy sauce. And I think the assumption in French supermarkets is like, ‘Oh, well, if you belong to an ethnic community, say you're French Chinese or something, you're gonna go shop in the Asian supermarket, and we don't need to stock your exotic noodle brands here.’ Which is really crazy, because white people also deserve good noodles! Don’t you think? 

D: Absolutely.

K: I've got very off track here, what are we supposed to be talking about?

D: I was like, how have we got to noodles?! I thought this was about rap! 

K: Sorry, yes, rant over. The good news for French rap is that it's now going to have its own very prestigious award ceremony as of Thursday, and not just rap as well – also other music of black origin. There are prizes in the Flammes for the best R&B, the best Caribbean-inspired and the best Afro-inspired music, too. And it's hoped that this will allow musicians from these genres to get the recognition that they deserve. There was an infamous moment at the Victoires awards last year, which is *the* big award ceremony of the French musical year. A lot of people thought this rapper called Tiakola was going to win Best Male Newcomer because he has just exploded over the past year or so. And he didn't – the prize went to this young Belgian singer called Pierre de Maere, who does, like, catchy pop – but it's pop. And across the whole ceremony, the only award that went to a rapper went to Orelsan, who is super famous, but he also happens to be a white rapper. So let's just say that the Victoires have a similar diversity problem to something like the Oscars. The new awards, the Flammes, are hoping to fix that. Something that should probably help is that there's a public vote, a bit like Eurovision – the public vote for the Flammes counts for 50% of the results. The other half of the vote goes to a gender-balanced jury of experts, and young Tiakola is up for Best Newcomer again, so this could be his chance to actually get the prize he deserves. We will see. 

D: Are you rooting for him? 

K: Tiakola, to be honest, I don't have many strong feelings about. I would like to see Aya Nakamura get a big prize. It's kind of obvious, but I mean, she is the biggest selling artist in general in the Francophone world, which I think might surprise people who think it's probably, I don't know, Celine Dion or something. But it’s not, it’s Aya Nakamura. So we'll see if she wins big.

HELP US OUT BY JOINING THE EUROPEAN CAPITAL OF DEMOCRACY JURY! - 18’39”

D: We've got a few lovely patreon supporters to thank this week. Thank you to Teo for joining, and to Gavin for increasing his pledge. You can join them and help ensure the future of this podcast, that we love making, by heading to Patreon.com/europeanspodcast. We sadly don't have the kind of salaries that MEPs have, but we do love what we do here, and we would like to keep doing it. So if you can donate as little as two euros or dollars or pounds a month, then please do consider it.

K: Please do. Another thing that you can help us out with, is – last week on the show, we asked a favour of all of you. As you might have heard, we have been tasked with helping to recruit people from all across Europe to help choose the next European Capital of Democracy. And apart from this being, in general, a very nice initiative that celebrates the cities that are good at giving power back to the people, the brilliant thing is that the organisers are actually paying us a little bit of money for every person who signs up to take part using the special link for this podcast. And then we can use that money to help make the show for you, urray! We were actually really touched to see lots and lots of people signing up to help us out over the past week, but it's not too late if you're only just hearing about this – you've actually got until May 15. So if you live somewhere in Europe –

not just in the EU but any Council of Europe country, which includes the UK, the Western Balkans and many other places besides – you are eligible to take part, and we would love it if you signed up. The link is in the show notes.

D: Thank you!

EUROVISION VS. THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE - 18’39”

K: Tuesday was Europe Day. Did you do anything in particular to mark Europe Day this year, Dominic?

D: Oh, I went to an event on the eve of Europe Day for the European Review of Books.

K: Europe Day Eve.

D: Which is also a thing now, Europe Day Eve – 

K: Happy Europe Day Eve!

D: – where we listened to people debating whether Europe is a joke or not.

K: Hmm! 

D: Yeah, it felt like a good natural continuation of our conversation on last week's show with the Schuman Show about satirising the EU.

K: And speaking of Schuman, if you don't know, May 9 is the anniversary of the Schuman Declaration, which is considered today to be one of the founding documents of the modern EU. It set out a world in which war between European countries would be unthinkable. And our friends at the European Cultural Foundation helped to coordinate a whole bunch of events on Tuesday, in honour of this day that celebrates peace and unity on our continent. Although this year of course, at the front of everyone's minds was the fact that we sadly do not currently have peace on our continent beyond EU borders. But among the events organised by the European Cultural Foundation, this year, was a very fun event that I got to host at the Tolhuistuin in Amsterdam. Dominic was apparently too busy singing, in inverted commas, to come along.

D: I was performing an opera!

K: Whatever. Anyway, you missed out because there was great music and a very fun debate that I got to moderate about which of Europe's two favourite competitions, football's Champions League and the Eurovision Song Contest, is a greatest source of unity on our continent. Both football and music are often cited as things that unite Europeans across borders, but which one of them is actually better at bringing people together? That's a very fun argument to have in general. But it just so happened that Tuesday night coincided with both a Champions League semi-final, and one of the Eurovision semi-finals. So this was an urgent practical debate to be had – like, which one of these two events should be put on the big screens at the party? In the end, we decided to screen both of them. But we couldn't have the sound on for both – that would just be, you know, pure chaos. So in true European style, we decided to let democracy decide and have people vote on which one would get played with the sound on, and which one we were just gonna put on the screen and force the losers following it to wear headphones. To inform this vote, we staged a little debate with one very passionate advocate on each side. Fighting the case for the Champions League was Barbara Barend, famous Dutch sports commentator, and in her youth a former star player on the Dutch national girls’ team herself. And on Team Eurovision, a returning guest of this podcast Dean Vuletic, the world's eminent historian of the Song Contest. I tossed a 20 euro cent coin to determine who went first, and that honour went to Barbara.

BARBARA: There are two things in this world that unite people. That's music and sports. But sports even unites more. Let me tell you a little story about myself. This little redhead girl that was a bit wild – teachers would call me a wild lion and that they had to tame me. I wasn't really behaving like a girl, I was a bit different. And I was thrown out of the class often. But I really, really loved soccer. And that was also odd. As a five-year-old girl, it was not possible at that time to play soccer. So I wanted to play, and I went to court and tried the Dutch association because girls weren't allowed to play at the age of six – boys were. So, and I won the court case. I defended myself, I didn't need a lawyer at the age of six, because I could speak clearly and then make them clear why I should be able to play soccer. And then as a little Jewish redhead, from this good neighbourhood in Amstelveen, with two parents that went to university with good jobs, I went to the soccer club in Amsterdam. In my club, I had Yacinta with this big afro hair, I had Harvey with his big afro hair. I had Karim, this Moroccan kid. I had also Eric and Feri. Eric was the son of the biggest porn king in Amsterdam. Why do I tell this story? We started playing at the age of six. We played six years long, we became champions of Amsterdam. We beat Ajax, we went to England, we went to France, and everywhere we went, we were all together. I was the only girl. We always played boys’ teams everywhere. And I can tell you all – these boys we played, they really would hate you if you would say something. They blocked the shower so I can’t take my shower. But all those, the Moroccan kids, this little Jewish girl that turned out to like women when she grew up, these Surinamese kids, we were all together. We were all united, none of us would ever discriminate. We still have reunions, we have such a great time. And why am I telling you this story? I think sports and especially soccer is the solution to any problem in this world. We have a problem on racism in sports. Hey, if I wasn't good enough, I wasn't on that team. Didn't matter what colour I was, what background. Throw in a ball and people start playing together. I went to Spain where we had a little house, so I played on the boys’ team there. Everywhere in the world I go, I tell my daughter and son, we go and play soccer. You don't need a language. You're all together, unite. Then – I have to admit a story. Growing up as a Jewish child in Holland, I wasn't raised with Germany being our best friends. And I still remember when we beat Germany in the World Cup in ‘88, that we all went dancing because we beat Germany. And at that time, we still hated Germany. I have to tell you now, I really like Germany because of soccer. Because of my work, I had to go often to Bayern Munich, to all kinds of clubs. And I've seen how we’ve been treated. I’ve seen how they get together, I see how to German teams raise rainbow flags, and how they really want to unite this world. And one other thing, not everybody can sing. But everybody, if I toss a ball here, everybody can kick the ball. So, I'm sorry, even though I like songs, there's only one thing that really unites and that's soccer, and this Champions League tonight.

K: Thank you, Barbara. All right, you heard it here – football can solve any of the world's problems. Dean, time for you to make your opening statement. You have five minutes.

DEAN: Good evening. Good evening, Europe. It's Europe's biggest show. It's Europe's biggest election. Nothing unites us like the Eurovision Song Contest. My research on Eurovision has taken me across Europe, from the Netherlands to Norway, Serbia to Slovenia, Iceland to Italy, and I can tell you wherever I go, everyone knows what Eurovision is. Love it or loathe it, they have an opinion about it. It's a great conversation starter wherever you go. And the statistics speak for themselves. One of Europe's longest running television shows, established in 1956, still attracts hundreds of millions of viewers each year. So why is Eurovision so powerful? Because it's diverse. You see more countries represented in Eurovision than you do in the Champions League. This year there are 37 countries in Eurovision, big and small, old and new, rich and poor, not just wealthy soccer clubs. Where else do you get to see San Marino on the international stage? One of their teams has never made it to the Champions League, but they have made it to the Eurovision Grand Final. In the four hours of the Eurovision grand final you get to travel all around Europe, learn about its diverse cultures, languages and sights, not just go up and down a soccer pitch. And in Eurovision you see more human diversity than in the Champions League, more than just male soccer players. Eurovision has people of different ages, genders and sexualities, from all walks of life. Stars and those who are searching for stardom – we like underdogs in Eurovision, we want to discover new talent, and Eurovision has launched some huge talents. Julio Iglesias, Abba, Celine Dion Domenico Modugno. ‘Volare’ is from Eurovision, and it's the most famous non-English language pop song ever. The artists and songs rally us around causes, around European unity, around world peace, around the rights of sexual minorities, around environmental concerns, and this year, especially, around mental health issues. And while you can barrack for your own country, you can't vote for it. You have to think about others, other artists, other countries, other Europeans who may be far away from us. But at the same time, you can celebrate, you can party, sing and dance. Eurovision brings us all together. So Eurovision is diverse, but it's democratic as well. And we've heard a lot about democracy in Europe already this evening. It's Europe's biggest election. In no other election do citizens from so many countries vote. There are only 27 countries voting in the elections to the European Parliament for example, and remember that the national selections for Eurovision usually have a public televote. The results in Eurovision are up to us. You can't vote in the Champions League. And Eurovision is democratic and diverse because every country gets the same amount of airtime on stage. The Netherlands has excelled at this, winning five times beaten only by Sweden and Ireland. When did the Dutch team last win the Champions League? Ohhhhh, ohhhhh, all I know, all I know, loving you is a losing game!

You've given us – you've given us – I only have five minutes, guys, save the applause – you've given us some other great lines, ding-a-dong, shalalie shalala, shalalie shalala. And my favourite: We bouwen huizen om orkanen te weerstaan, en maken schepen om in elke storm te varen… Because of Eurovision I even learned a bit of Dutch and some funky Dutch dance moves. As Ruth Jacott reminds us in that hit song from 1992, Eurovision is a peace project. It's a competition, but one that brings together foes and has never led to violence. There's no such thing as a Eurovision hooligan.

K: All right. Barbara, you have two minutes to respond to that.

B: No, I mean, I think you did really well. And some of the things I can’t compete with. Because yes, it's only men that we see competing on the field. But if you look at it, if you look at an export product from a country, I really think people have no idea who Lenny Kuhr is, but if you ask them who is Ruud Gullit or who is Johan Cruyff or who is Ronald Koeman, I do believe that even today they know who Vivianne Miedema or Lieke Martens is. And I think that's the power that soccer has. And that's the most important thing. And yes, would I have wished that also there be a semi finals for women? Of course. So to be honest, I think we should all play football and maybe watch Eurovision. Maybe that's a big compromise. Because football really is for everyone, and singing is not for everyone to do, singing is maybe for some people to watch and some people to join it, also very specific groups. Because you see out here, there's no one getting excited about Eurovision – you can ask 100 people and probably 100 people have no idea what you're talking about. But if you’re asking them, ‘Are you gonna watch Champions League tonight, with players and teams from all different countries and continents and colours?’ It's up to you. But I will choose – because the songs are not good anyways – tonight I would choose Real Madrid Manchester City.

K: Thank you, Barbara. All right, Dean, your turn to rebut any of the arguments that you may have disliked. Two minutes are yours.

D: Well, this argument that we can all kick a football. I'm sorry, I can't. Even though I'm Croatian, and I should be able to after that third placing in the World Cup, I cannot, so – and I don't think I can sing very well either. Because it's not about that – it's about us coming together and enjoying the talents of others and enjoying each other's company. And this is what Eurovision does, it brings us together more than the Champions League does. Because when we watch Eurovision, we're not just focused on the game. We're not just focused on some technique. We're seeing all these different artists come on stage, from different backgrounds, different countries, different languages. We actually learn a lot during this fun process, we learn a lot about our fellow Europeans. In the Champions League, you don't really learn anything about other cultures. Sure, someone might be from a different country, but you don't learn their stories, you don't learn their biography in the actual show. Whereas in Eurovision, you do, because in the Eurovision, the commentators will very often tell you the interesting aspects of a personal biography. So I think Eurovision is much more powerful because it teaches us much more. And I loved Barbara's personal story. And I could probably give a similar one about the little boy who liked watching Eurovision. So I think they were actually equal. But in the end, I think what Eurovision does more than the Champions League is it just teaches us more about our fellow Europeans.

K: Thank you, Dean. All right. Final chance for each of you to convince this crowd before we vote. You have one minute each. Barbara, the floor is yours.

B: Yeah, you know what? I think it's all been said. And I think we're pretty equal in our arguments. And actually, we're trying to say the same. We all want to bind and bring people together and I think that's the most important story of tonight. Whether you choose soccer, or whether you choose Eurovision, if I win or lose, that's my most important message for tonight. When you step out of this room, just practise what you are preaching and then I'm a happy camper.

K: That was a very gracious and dignified way to use your final minute. Dean, are you going to do something similarly gracious and dignified, or are you gonna use your minute to attack as much as possible?

D: Well going by the Eurovision rules I'm not allowed to vote for myself, so I have to vote for Barbara. 

B: You have to, or you want to?

D: Both! No, I agree that you know, both of these events are amazing, you know, how they do manage to bring so many people together. But Eurovision is peace, Eurovision is fun, Eurovision is for everyone. It's diverse. It's democratic. Vote Eurovision.

K: Thank you both so much. So, excellent arguments on either side. The moment of truth: it is time to vote. We're gonna vote by waving our hands, please, like this. Can I please take votes for the Champions League as the greatest force of the two for peace and unity on this continent. Who votes for the Champions League? Quite a few hands… And now, secondly, Eurovision. Who votes for Eurovision? Oh, I’d call that pretty decisive. Football fans – look, it's very sad, but football’s something you can enjoy with the sound off anyway.

D: That’s what I was gonna say! 

K: Thank you both so much for this excellent debate.

K: So, a pretty decisive win in the end for Eurovision. Which I guess is to be expected. I mean, I love our friends at the European Cultural Foundation very much, but their parties are much more likely to attract people who are into ridiculous camp pop music than sports, don’t you think?

D: I mean yeah, it's a cultural foundation. I'm not sure – I was really impressed with Barbara, I think you can imagine which side I lean in this argument, but I found her opening argument quite touching.

K: I spoke to quite a few people who thought going into it that they were going to vote for Eurovision who ended up voting for Barbara. So good job, Barbara. I had a brilliant time hosting this event and I wanted to mention that playing in the background for a lot of the evening was a Spotify playlist compiled for Europe Day. Some of the tracks are by great European artists, some of them just have a nice message, there is a lot of ABA on there. So if that floats your boat, check it out, I will put a link in the show notes.

ISOLATION INSPIRATION - 37’46”

K: Obviously we will both be glued to Eurovision this weekend, but what have you been enjoying this week?

D: Yeah, I was tempted to have a musicological rant about how I think the French and UK entries for Eurovision are harmonically and melodically almost identical. But I don't want to lose any more anti-Eurovision listeners by talking more about Eurovision this week. So instead, I'm probably going to lose all the anti-coronation listeners and recommend a long read about King Charles III. The most interesting reflection I read on Charles around the coronation was a piece in the New Statesman by Will Lloyd titled ‘King Charles III's Secret Kingdom’. It's a piece that explores Charles's long running love affair with Romania.

K: Oh yeah!

D: Which I really didn't know about.

K: He's got like a castle there or something, right?

D: He owns a few properties there. And it's not just Romania he's obsessed with – he's specifically obsessed with preserving traditions and the natural world in rural Transylvania. And Will Lloyd argues through this long piece that you can really understand Charles as a person and his philosophies much better by finding out about his activities in Romania, a place that Lloyd argues Charles may love even more than he loves Britain, which is a pretty bold statement for someone who's just become king of Britain. Anyway, it's a fascinating piece. And it's, I'm sorry, it's the second Isolation Inspiration in a row that I've given that's looking at Romania from an outside view, and I promise it will be my last for a while. What have you been enjoying, Katy?

K: I've got something quite cool to recommend this week, actually. Not that my recommendations aren't always cool, but this one is particularly cool, I think. I heard about this Irish computer game called ‘If Found’. I think it's been out for a couple of years already, but I just heard about it via this French technology newsletter that I like a lot, so I thought I'd check it out. And it's not even really a game, it's more like a kind of graphic novel that you follow on your screen. It is a story set between outer space and 1990s rural Ireland, on the island of Achill, just off the west coast. And there's lots of Irish slang and cultural references in the dialogue, with these little asterisks where you can read the translations. The main character is this young person called Kasio, and you follow their story by erasing parts of their diary with your finger on the screen. I've never really experienced a story quite like it before, I have the game on my phone and you just move from scene to scene by erasing these beautiful graphic backgrounds that are all kind of layered on top of each other. And it feels really intimate, because you're reading this person's diary and then destroying it, effectively. It's really hard to describe so I suggest you just check it out. I downloaded it on my phone via the App Store, but you can also get it on Nintendo Switch or on your computer. And it's very intriguing and fun. I'm enjoying it a lot. It's called If Found.

D: That is cool of you to recommend that.

K: Thank you.

D: I wouldn't expect it.

K: I'm very in touch with young person culture. Rap music and computer games this week.

HAPPY ENDING - 40’54”

Here is a happy ending for you all. A Lithuanian man called Aurimas Valujavičius has arrived in Florida after rowing all alone from Spain. All across the Atlantic.

K: Why?!

D: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'm not even going there. Why is a very good question, Katy. It took him 120 days, so four months. He set off on December 26 ;ast year, and he had been hoping to break the world record, which was 110 days. And he missed it by 10 days, unfortunately. But hey, he still made it across, rowing alone, and is only the third person in the world to do that, the first Lithuanian person to do that. And I think he therefore deserves a happy ending slot, even if he hasn't broken a world record. Not everything has to be about winning, does it?

K: No, I'm just… you know, I’m wondering how bored he got. Like, did he have podcasts and stuff to keep him company?

D: Yeah, that is an interesting question, and I'm afraid I don't have the answers. All I know is that he arrived at a port in Florida and was greeted by around 100 Lithuanians, including members of his family, and I'm sure they're very proud of him. Completely bonkers thing to do if you ask me, but it still kind of makes me happy to hear about. Before I go, thank you to Patreon supporter Caitríona for recommending this story. And thank you to all our Patreon supporters for all the amazing suggestions you send us, either on that Facebook group or by email. It really does help us make the show and have a more diverse spectrum of stories.

K: It does indeed! 

D: So keep doing it.

K: Please do. If you want to see some cool photos of celebrity death masks from back in the day, check out our Instagram. They're from a fun thing I did for work last week. I saw Beethoven's death mask, and Robespierre’s death mask, and I got to put my hand in Sigmund Freud's head.

D: Urgh. 

K: It was a great day. @europeanspodcast is our handle, we're also on Twitter @europeanspod. And if as per Dominic's request, if you have ideas for stuff that we should be talking about, send us an email – hello at europeanspodcast.com.

D: Thank you to the European Cultural Foundation for organising the debate that Katy hosted.

K: You can actually find lots of stuff that they helped to organise for this year's Europe Day on their website, europeday.eu.

D: I get to actually see you in real life next week.

K: Yay! The only thing that could possibly beat Beyoncé.

D: Do you promise not to look at me though?

K: What?

D: I find it distracting when you look at me .

K: What, while we're recording when we're recording?

D: When we’re recording. Remember? We've done it like three times before, and I always find it really weird.

K: I promise not to look at you in general.

D: Thank you. Appreciated. Have a good week, everyone.

K: See you next week. See you in real life next week. Dominic!

D: Finally. 

K: Bye, everyone!

D: La revedere!