Libraries: the safest spaces we have?
What comes to mind when you imagine a library? Rows of books, probably. But across the continent, libraries are transforming into places that serve communities in all sorts of other ways. This week we hear from two very different libraries about how they're doing just that: Bojana Grujic of the Novi Sad City Library in Serbia and Myrto Tsilimpounidi from the Feminist Library at the Feminist Autonomous Centre in Athens. We're also talking about the fallout from Macron's trip to China, the international fight against Hungary's homophobic law, and the hallucinogenic adventures of early Europeans.
Bojana and Myrto's libraries are taking part in the European Cultural Foundation's Europe Challenge. The hunt for new participants begins soon; keep an eye on the ECF's website for updates, or subscribe to their newsletter.
This week's Isolation Inspiration: Birdsbesafe cat collars, available via the Royal Belgian League for the Protection of Birds, and 'The Shadow King' by Maaza Mengiste. Bonus: Katy's amazing Notion template.
Thanks for listening! If you enjoy our podcast and would like to help us keep making it, we'd love it if you'd consider chipping in a few bucks a month at patreon.com/europeanspodcast (many currencies are available). You can also help new listeners find the show by leaving us a review or giving us five stars on Spotify.
00:22 No Easter eggs for Dominic
02:43 Messy / Bad Week: Macron and von der Leyen's trip to China
14:47 Good Week: The fight against Hungary's anti-LGBTQ law
23:06 Interview: Bojana Grujic and Myrto Tsilimpounidi on the reinvention of Europe's libraries
35:51 Isolation Inspiration: Birdsbesafe cat collars and 'The Shadow King' by Maaza Mengiste
40:59 Happy Ending: Early Europeans' psychedelic dabbling
Producers: Katy Lee and Wojciech Oleksiak
Mixing and mastering: Wojciech Oleksiak
Music: Jim Barne and Mariska Martina
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
INTRODUCTION - 0’22”
KATY: I found out something really exciting this week.
DOMINIC: Tell me.
K: So you know how I'm really obsessed with this app called Notion?
D: Yes.
K: Which I use to write my ‘to do’ lists.
D: Oh, you don't do it anymore?
K: No, I do, and I never shut up about how life changing it is, and you find it incredibly annoying. I found out this week that a former French government minister is using this ‘to do’ list planner. Because of me!
D: No.
K: Yes!
D: Did they hear about it on the podcast?
K: No, I convinced a friend of mine to join this cult of mine. And she recruited her colleague, who became completely obsessed with it. And then the colleague happened to have a meeting with this former government minister, who was like, ‘Oh, what's that you're using? Looks like a life changing app.’
D: Wow. I feel rather ashamed of myself that I've not taken this on. I just think it's not for me.
K: I just think your life would be better. I mean, I don't know, I sound unhinged when I talk about this app, so I'm going to stop talking about it now. But I will put the template that I use in the show notes because I want to see if I can get it to be used by, like, a serving head of state or something. Wouldn't that be great?
D: All serving heads of state that are listening, please click on that link.
K: Please do. How are you?
D: I'm fine now, although I had like the worst flu ever this Easter weekend, which was pretty grim.
K: Oh Domnic. No chocolate eggs for you, then?
D: No. Oh my God, the thought of a chocolate egg is hell.
K: I hope you’re feeling better?
D: I am. Did you have a nice holiday weekend?
K: I ate enough chocolate eggs for both of us, so we’re good.
D: Pleased to hear it.
K: What's coming up on the show this week?
D: This week, we're going to be talking about one of the loveliest things there is: the library. We'll be looking at two very different libraries and speaking to people who work at these two libraries, a feminist library in Greece that's creating a safe space in a previously unsafe neighbourhood, and one in Serbia, which is working to encourage civic participation and dialogue. It's a very nice chat that reminded me clearly that libraries are definitely not just places to go and borrow books. What can libraries do for our societies? We'll be answering that question later on in the show. But first, it's time for Good Week, Bad Week.
BAD WEEK - 2’43”
D: Who has had a bad week?
K: I'm a little hesitant to call it ‘bad week’. I was wondering if we might rebrand the segment this week and call it Good Week, Messy Week? Am I allowed to do that?
D: We'll have to speak to the board. Patreon supporters, what do you think?
K: I just feel like ‘messy’ is a more accurate description. So I'm giving ‘messy week’ to Emmanuel Macron and Ursula von der Leyen’s trip to China, which has ruffled quite a lot of feathers and generally been a bit chaotic. The first rather chaotic element to all of this is that Macron invited von der Leyen to go with him to Beijing as a kind of display of European unity, and then they got there and it was super awkward because the Chinese government didn't really seem to give a shit about the President of the European Commission visiting. Macron really got the VIP treatment in Beijing, he got like a military parade and a fancy state banquet. And there was a red carpet on the stairs of his plane for him to walk down. Von der Leyen just turned up like a normal plane passenger in one of those sad corridors that connect planes to the terminal. And generally the way that she got treated made it very obvious that the Chinese government doesn't really care that much about the EU as an institution, and as far as they're concerned, if they want to talk to Europe, they talk to France or to Germany.
D: Sounds kind of awkward. Do you think the fact that von der Leyen got this kind of cold welcome, do you think it's got something to do with the fact that she's been quite critical of China lately?
K: I'm not a member of the Chinese Communist Party and they're quite impenetrable, but I do think it might have something to do with that, yeah. So, at the end of March, von der Leyen gave this really quite tough speech on China. She said that China had become more repressive at home. She called the government out on the horrific way that it has been treating the Uighur minority in Xinjiang in the northwest of China. And she threatened to walk away from this massive trade deal between the EU and China that has been frozen by the European Parliament. It really wasn't the kind of dull diplomatic speech that leaders normally give when they're due to be heading to that country a week later. And von der Leyen clearly gave the speech knowing that it was going to piss off her hosts and probably affect the kind of welcome that she was going to get in Beijing. So it was pretty bold, it kind of made me respect her a little bit more. But once she got to Beijing, she and Macron met with Xi Jinping, the Chinese president. And apparently von der Leyen was pretty bold during that meeting as well. She told Xi Jinping that China's threats to use force when it comes to Taiwan are unacceptable, which was a quite different tone from the one that Macron struck during this trip. If the idea was to preserve this kind of unified European front, I don't think Macron and von der Leyen really achieved that. Unless, I mean, I guess there's like a chance that maybe Macron and von der Leyen planned this the whole time. Like, maybe they got together beforehand, and Macron was like, ‘Listen Ursula, I'll be good cop during this trip, and you can be bad cop. And together, we'll get Xi Jinping to open up and talk to us.’ But I don't know.
D: I mean, it wouldn't be the first time that's happened in the world, right?
K: It wouldn't, no. But it's quite a generous interpretation.
D: From what I understand. Macron really did try to come across as good cop, right? He was really trying to be more generous towards Xi Jinping.
K: You could say that, yeah. I mean, if Macron’s intention was just to make Xi Jinping like him, I wouldn't say he played this trip completely perfectly. There were a couple of awkward moments. The first one was this press conference between Macron and Xi, where Macron talked for like twice as long as the Chinese president, which is a big faux-pas. Apparently there were a couple of moments when Xi Jinping audibly did a deep sigh. Like, ‘Will you just shut up, Emmanuel!’ The other slightly awkward moment was when Macron met some students in Guangzhou and he got treated like a rock star, which is not how Chinese students generally greet their own politicians. Apparently there were a few screams of ‘I love you, Macron!’ which I'm sure Macron would’ve appreciated, because this is definitely not how students see him at home here in France right now, especially with all of the pension protests that have been going on. Like, I literally walked past some graffiti this week calling for him to be sent to the guillotine. But yeah, this idea of his charisma shining through, and also the way that he talked to these Chinese students – he managed to get a few references in to freedom of expression – and I'm not sure his hosts would have liked that very much.
D: Not such a good cop, then.
K: Sort of a moderate cop. But those moments aside, Macron clearly got taken pretty seriously in Beijing. He spent about six hours with the Chinese president, a lot of it almost one-on-one apart from their translators. And they signed a bunch of trade deals as well.
D: Maybe I misunderstood this, but I thought Macron and von der Leyen were mainly going to China to talk about the war in Ukraine. Did that happen?
K: They did talk about Ukraine, and that is where I think this would possibly qualify as an outright bad week rather than just a messy week. Because this trip was billed as like this crucial opportunity to convince Xi Jinping to put some pressure on his friend Vladimir Putin. China's relationship with Russia has become really very close over the past year. China has been buying loads of Russian oil. So Beijing has influence over Moscow, a lot of it. So Macron and von der Leyen went to China with that in mind, and they did talk about the war a lot. They asked Xi to use his influence with Putin. But it doesn't really look like Macron and von der Leyen came away with much to show for it. It's even been reported that at one point in their meetings, Xi seemed very annoyed at the way that they were talking to him. He felt like he was being blamed for the war still going on. But in general, everyone came away from this visit calling for peace in Ukraine, but not much seemed to have happened in terms of working out how to get to that peace.
D: And I've not really been following it on Twitter, but Macron caused some kind of hoo ha in an interview on the way home, right?
K: Yeah. So personally I don't think it was anything to get that outraged about. But people do love to get outraged about things on Twitter, so that's what's been happening, around various aspects of this interview that Macron gave on the plane home to Les Echos, which is France's biggest financial newspaper, and also to Politico Europe. The first headline-generating thing that Macron said was that he thinks Europe needs to be less dependent on the United States. Which is something that he's been saying for years, right? Like we've talked numerous times in this podcast about Macron’s obsession with strategic autonomy and this idea that Europe should be less dependent on the US in all sorts of ways – in defence and trade and energy. So that really isn't especially new. I guess the thing that's really generated controversy is the comments he made linked to the idea of Europe needing to be independent, and that was when Macron said that Europe should not get involved in a big conflict between the US and China when it comes to Taiwan. Taiwan, just to give a quick recap – China says that it owns Taiwan, that Taiwan is part of China. And it has repeatedly threatened to invade the island. The West would be absolutely horrified if this happened. Not only is Taiwan a pretty vibrant democracy, it's also the source of most of the world's semiconductors – you know, these little silicon chips, they're in pretty much everything from our laptops to our cars. So if China invades the island, it's a huge deal for all of us and for the global economy. The United States has repeatedly promised to defend Taiwan if it's attacked by China. And this is something that's generating more and more tension between the US and China. China just wrapped up its latest, very alarming military drills around the island. And there's a real threat of an actual military conflict involving two huge global superpowers. In that context, a lot of people, particularly US political commentators, got really pissed off by Macron saying he does not think Europe should get, and I quote, ‘caught up in crises which are not ours’. And I do see why some commentators have got really mad about that phrasing in particular. Like, personally, as someone who cares about Taiwan and loves democracy, to say that Taiwan is not a crisis that ours, grates on me a lot. Like, I don't want to see Taiwan invaded. But I think it should go without saying that, obviously, Macron doesn't either. I think some of the outraged internet commentary about this has made it sound like he just thinks whatever happens in Taiwan has nothing to do with us here in Europe. But what he actually said was that Europe doesn't have a strategic interest in this conflict between the US and China accelerating in any way, which is a slightly different, more nuanced thing to say.
D: But so in general, what he said was interpreted as undermining the unity of the West, right?
K: Yeah, and I think that's a fair assessment. The US and Europe work really closely together in so many different ways. And they're generally seen as being very aligned in their worldviews. So if Macron says, ‘We don't really want to get involved in this whole Taiwan beef that the US has with China,’ of course, that's going to piss off the US. Like, they want to see European leaders vocally backing their own position. One other important thing to note is that China itself loves this idea of driving a wedge between the US and Europe, right? It's in their strategic interest to have the West not be super united in general. So they're really supportive of Macron wanting Europe to be more independent from the US. Beijing is like, ‘Yes, Macron, you go for this whole strategic autonomy thing, go for it as hard as you can!’ And I don't know, the idea that what Macron is doing and saying plays into China's hands is something that makes me instinctively nervous because I find China incredibly scary. Having said that, there's some very cartoonish depictions floating around of how Macron sees the world. So just to be clear, like, he's definitely not saying that he thinks Europe and the US shouldn't be allies, or carry on working together closely in all kinds of ways. He just thinks that it will be strategically useful for Europe to be more united in itself and less dependent on the US. So the more outraged of the newspaper columns, like the one in the Wall Street Journal that was really mad and Macron and was like, ‘Okay, well fine, if Europe wants to be less dependent on the US, why don't you guys just sort out Ukraine on your own, then?’ I think those ones went a little bit too far. But at the same time, I don't want to come across as a cheerleader for Macron in all of this. He is an incredibly slippery person when it comes to diplomacy. He was like this with Putin, when he kept insisting on talking to Putin even though everyone was like, ‘You're talking to a brick wall, this is pointless, this man is hell-bent on invading the whole of Ukraine.’ And Macron’s approach to China is not that dissimilar from what his approach to Russia was. I mean, let's not forget, this is another autocrat that we're talking about. Xi Jinping is an incredibly repressive leader, whose government does horrific things to its own people, not least in Xinjiang. And Macron is apparently pretty happy to go visit and flatter this autocrat and make him feel important and powerful. And all of that is supposedly part of Macron's strategy of keeping dialogue open and staying influential. But just like how Macron kept coming away from those meetings with Putin empty-handed, it doesn't especially seem like he has been able to influence Xi Jinping either, all while pissing off our friends in the United States. So yeah, a very messy week for Macron. bordering on an outright bad week. Yeah, you know what, actually? I've changed my mind. Let's just call it Bad Week.
D: Sounds like we didn't need to change the name at all.
GOOD WEEK - 14’47”
K: I take it back. Who's had a good week?
D: I think we can argue that it's been a good week for European solidarity against homophobia and transphobia, after 15 EU countries – that's a majority of the EU member states – decided to join the EU Commission and the European Parliament, all coming together to take Hungary to the European Court of Justice over their so-called child protection law. A law that is widely interpreted as being anti-LGBTQ+. I think we talked about this incredibly controversial law on the show before, didn't we, when it emerged back in 2021?
K: I think we did, yeah.
D: But as a quick reminder, the Hungarian government insists it was brought in to protect children, but it bans the presentation of homosexuality, gender reassignment, or sexuality for its own sake – whatever that means – to children under 18. So that's both in the educational realm, but also in all media, so like books, television, etc. And the bill is seen as essentially equating paedophilia with homosexuality, something I thought we'd got over in the 1980s, but apparently not. The European Commission's referral to the European Court of Justice argued that Hungary's law violates the internal market rules, the fundamental rights of individuals and the EU values. And so the news this week is that 15 EU countries have signed on to join that legal fight against this law.
K: Were there any countries on that list that are kind of surprising, or ones that you didn't expect to see?
D: I don't know if there are any, like, big surprises, but people were pleased with the addition of the two biggest countries in the EU, France and Germany, who both joined at the last minute. And there was actually some criticism from civil society of France and Germany's decision to join so late. The organisation Forbidden Colours, who have been lobbying for more countries to join this fight, said, quote, seeing the two oldest and largest member states of the EU not taking the lead in the defence of our most fundamental EU values of equality, inclusion and respect of human dignity, sends an alarming signal to all LGBTIQ+ communities in Europe. And they go on to suggest that if France and Germany had joined earlier, they might have been able to have persuaded even more countries. But switching back to the positive – because this is Good Week, after all – there was quite some positive attention around the fact that Slovenia joined as well. It's maybe not surprising per se that they joined because they now have a relatively progressive coalition government. But considering how different things were in Slovenia politically just a year ago, this was unthought of with the previous government. It was seen as quite a victory that Slovenia are now on board for this court fight. And a cheerful sidebar for you all: Slovenia actually became the first post-communist and first Slavic country to legalise same sex marriage earlier this year.
K: I always told you Slovenia was the best country in Europe.
D: You did.
K: I think I said that on this show like four years ago, and I stand by it.
D: I know, and I'm really regretting not going because I was living in Bolzano, which is like pretty close to Slovenia. Too busy working. Next time, I'll go. But I want to make sure I give all the countries that signed on to this law their moment in the sun, so I'll list the others too. They are Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and Sweden.
K: Good job.
D: Well done all for signing on. It had looked like the Czech Republic might have also joined the case, but it seems that their cabinet could not come to an agreement on the matter, to the disappointment of the Czech foreign minister, who expressed regret when announcing on Twitter the cabinet's decision not to sign on. There's also some hope that now Kaja Kallas has just this week signed a new coalition agreement, Estonia might also be persuaded to join the fight as latecomers, if that is even possible. One more positive sidebar, if you'll allow it – it looks like same-sex marriage is also going to be legalised by Kallas’s new government in Estonia.
K: Yay!
D: So yeah, there is some good news. And I think it is a good week for solidarity. Forbidden Colours, this organisation I was talking about, described it as the largest human rights case in EU legal history thanks to all the support.
K: Ooh, big claim there. What happens now? Like, how quickly does this thing move?
D: Well, the EU countries that signed on will get to assess the arguments prepared and add things they want to add. And a first hearing could apparently come in the autumn this year, and a ruling should be ready in the summer of 2024.
K: And if the court does rule against the law, does Hungary actually have to change it?
D: Well, in terms of international law, yes it does. But I've been trying to work out what is actually likely to happen in that situation. And it's a bit more complicated than that. I ended up in a rabbit hole reading a research paper published by the Hungarian Helsinki Committee looking into exactly this, how the Hungarian government have been responding to international legal rulings recently, because there've been quite a few against them. And there have been a few worrying patterns in their response to European Court of Justice rulings lately. They cite a few cases that ruled against Hungary where Orbán’s government responded by using a mixture of delay tactics, leaving it many months before fixing the offending law or even changing the offending law in a way that doesn't really entirely remove the legal violation that the European Court ruled against. So even if the European Court of Justice rules against this child protection law, it might not be the end of the story. Sorry to bring a downer on this moment of European solidarity. And more of a downer, one thing's for sure, Orbán and his government are not planning on backing down from their attack on LGBTQ+ rights. In response to the news of all these countries joining the case, they accused governments of falling for Brussels’ gender propaganda.
K: That one again.
D: Yeah, that one, exactly. And said they were bringing even more measures later this year, which they claim will even better ‘protect’ children, which is a pretty terrifying prospect. If it's anything like their last law, it's less likely to actually protect any children and more likely to just be a dog-whistle to their supporters to remind everyone that Fidesz, Orbán’s party, definitely still don't like people who aren't cis-gendered or heterosexual. So a good week for European solidarity against these homophobes. Can I say that? I just said it.
K: You can definitely say that.
* * *
K: This podcast might sound like it's recorded by well-paid professionals in a beautiful soundproof studio. It is, in fact, recorded inside my wardrobe in my apartment in Paris, and by Dominic sitting on the floor of his living room. So a lot of work goes into making it each week, making it sound good, but also putting a ton of research in to make sure that we're not telling you utter nonsense. And there is no huge media outlet funding us. We are an extremely small team spread out between Paris, Amsterdam and Warsaw. And because of that, we unfortunately live with the constant anxiety that we might not be able to carry on making this show that we love making, and that some of you, at least, seem to enjoy. So if you would like to help us get to a place where we can pick Dominic off the floor, and be sure that we can keep making The Europeans into next year and beyond, we would love it if you could contribute any spare cash you may have. Even small amounts make a lot of difference.
D: Yes. And we have a few new patreon supporters who signed up this week for a small monthly subscription to keep us afloat. They are [LIST OF NAMES]. Thank you all so much. You can join them by heading to patreon.com/europeanspodcast.
INTERVIEW: BOJANA GRUJIC AND MYRTO TSILIMPOUNIDI ON THE REINVENTION OF EUROPE'S LIBRARIES - 23’06”
K: When was the last time you went to library Dominic?
D: Quite a long time ago, to be honest.
K: I spent quite a lot of the time in the library last year doing some research on something that I've been working on. But I have to confess that I used this library in a quite traditional and conventional way.
D: What, were you checking books out?
K: Yeah, I I borrow books and then read them and took notes.
D: So old-fashioned.
K: … which is pretty boring, considering that the libraries of Europe are reinventing themselves as places where you can do a lot of stuff other than read books. They have so much potential as places that can serve communities in loads of different ways. A couple of years ago, our friends at the European Cultural Foundation launched a very cool initiative called the Europe Challenge, which brings together people who work at libraries all across the continent, and in all kinds of libraries, at schools, prisons, universities, in the middle of big cities or on tiny islands. And this year, the initiative has brought together 32 different libraries from across Europe. They all came together very recently in Amsterdam to share ideas and learn from each other, and we just thought this was very cool. We wanted to hear a little bit about a couple of the libraries taking part. So we rang up Myrto Tsilimpounidi from the Feminist Library in Athens, and Bojana Grujic from the city library in the Serbian city of Novi Sad.
D:I thought it would be a good place to start by telling us a little bit about your libraries and the place that they have in the life of their neighbourhoods and the wider city. Bojana, maybe we could start with you.
BOJANA: The feature of my library is that it reminds a lot of agora, the Greek marketplace where citizens gathered to exchange ideas. We wanted to make our public library into a city space where people can discuss or tend to local issues. And most of all, the most important thing was to empower citizens and make them aware of their own democratic potential.
K: But if I understand correctly, people don't tend to get involved very much in decision making, right? That seems to be a bit of a problem.
B: People are discouraged to take part in decision making. So the basic thing is actually to encourage them and to make them feel that they really have that potential.
D: And Myrto, could you tell us a little bit about the Feminist Library in Athens?
MYRTO: So the Feminist Library is part of the Feminist Autonomous Centre for Research. It's not supported by any institution, so we're really clear about being autonomous in that sense. To give you a little bit of the context, in Greece, the Ministry of Education is called the Ministry of Education and Religion. So we have public universities that could have amazing public libraries, yet, what gets put into a public library and into the university curriculum, as the name of the ministry suggests, many times gets controlled by the Church. So you can understand that anything that touches upon feminism, or queer studies, or trans studies, or issues that might be seen as controversial, doesn't really exist in official libraries. So the need to create the Feminist Library started from there.
D: And could you tell us a little bit about the neighbourhood that the library sits within?
M: So we're at the city centre at the neighbourhood of Agiou Panteleimonos, which is predominantly the neighbourhood that welcomed refugees and migrants in the city. So in a way, we thought that it's really important to basically put the library here and make it a safer space for different meetings to happen.
K: And how can the library – how can a library – make people feel safer in a neighbourhood, do you think?
M: So in the beginning, I tended to think of a library as a collection of books. Five years in, I realised that that’s only 5 percent of it. What makes a library, I think, for me, it's basically all the other activities and the way you reach out to your communities. The way also you break this division between the inside of the library and the outside of the neighbourhood. So I'll give you an example. When we first opened, we had like the usual suspects visiting the library – students and researchers and artists and different activists trying to find resources. But the way we reached out to the neighbourhood is, we're very near a square. In the Mediterranean, city squares are also used for, you know, men who read the newspapers. So we staged the performance of different groups of feminists reading books and newspapers on the square. And immediately, there were questions asked, like, ‘Oh, who are you? What are you doing?’ We're trying these kinds of small, if you like, performative acts, but also we're very bold in our statements. Like, it's a trans feminist space. It's an inclusive space. And I think that's also important to have it there, as people enter.
D: And Bojana, could you tell us a bit about the people that come to your library, day to day? What kind of people from the city come in?
B: People who come to the library first of all like to read. But there are, as we know, less and less of those. So we are trying to present things that they find interesting. Most of all, especially after the Corona crisis, we concluded that people actually liked the space – people need to be together, people need to meet face-to-face. And young people, most of all, are our focus group, and it's been rather convenient for us to ask them what they want, what they find interesting, what they find important and give them that space to talk about those things. When we asked them, they answered that health issues and ecology issues are the most important for them. We made a large discussion, wide discussion. Large platform. We invited people from schools, people from civic organisations, we also asked our decision makers – we invited them, but they didn't come to talk about those things. The basic thing was to step into someone else's shoes and try to see things from a different perspective. We made the groups and people simply started to think, ‘How does one person with mental health issues deal with today? How do they go through one day in their lives? How can we help them? How can media help them? How can institutions help them?’
K: I'm a little demoralised to hear that decision makers in the city didn't want to come. I'm starting to see why you said that people don't feel like they're encouraged to take part in decision making in the city. But do you think when you've held these kinds of activities, people do leave feeling more empowered to change the situation around them?
B: You can actually feel it in the air. When they made those solutions and presented them, it's actually the only thing that needed to be done. Because they know they have a voice, they speak in the same terms as everyone else in the room. And that's the core of democracy, learning that they have that power. We didn't expect those decision makers to come, but they received our conclusions, they are informed about what we talked about. It's a long way, a few years at least, before any one of them comes. But in the meantime, of course, we are doing all that we can to empower people, to let them know that their voices are heard, that their voice counts.
D: And Myrto, in a similar vein, have decision makers in Athens shown any interest in what you're doing?
M: If by decision makers, we're talking about the municipality, and people basically from the state, bigger institutions have shown an interest. But we mainly remained uninterested. I think the autonomy of certain spaces for us is important. We have a model of how we operate the library, which is independent of big funders, or s you know, public funding.
K: It was funny, Myrto, to hear you talk about this idea of a library being – you know, when you think of a library, you initially think of a collection of books. And I guess that's still how I think about libraries. But both of you have so much else going on at these sites. Do you think society has caught up with the idea that libraries are about more than borrowing books?
M: I think it depends who you talk to. Like, for example, I've realised that yes, reading has become something really particular, especially with the use of social media, and you know, the attention span and everything. One of the things that I enjoyed the most was the living library. So there are certain humans with stories who you train to become living books. And then when people come in, instead of borrowing a book, they can borrow a living book, and they can sit on the table and listen to his story. And I think, you know, all those different techniques speak volumes about the hyper-visuality also of our world, but also the different kinds of connectivity we're trying to achieve in libraries. So I think the response from our community, at least, was very enthusiastic.
D: It's a Danish concept, right, the living library?
M: I think so.
D: I'd love to go and experience that, it sounds really fun. Bojana, what do you say to people who think, ‘Oh, a library isn't for me, there's nothing of interest for me there’? How would you persuade them to come and give it a go?
B: There's something for everyone, from those who simply want to come and borrow the books to those who come to hear about the newest book written by our local author. It's actually all about reaching into the community, and the community will recognise it.
K: The two of you recently came together in Amsterdam for some days of activities that were organised by the European Cultural Foundation. Was it useful to come together and hear about what is going on at libraries in lots of other countries? Did you pick up any specific ideas to take home to your library?
M: I took many things back. But the thing that stayed with me, and I've never thought of anything like that before, is that right now in Europe, libraries are the safest spaces we have in the sense that in every smaller city you go or bigger city, the one thing that always exists is a library. And I feel that spaces where people can exist are becoming smaller and smaller, whether we're talking about migrants and refugees, whether we're talking about queer or trans people. So what was difficult to hear, but also exciting to recognise, is that we could use libraries as safer spaces and spaces where these communities can basically meet and feel that they have a claim to space. And that was like a common denominator in all libraries in all projects. So I think that's huge to begin with.
B: Libraries are spaces and spaces need people getting together doing things. I can say that my visit to Amsterdam was something like going back home.
M: I want to echo that, but also say to people out there to go to their nearest library, whether it's public or not public, and they might be surprised by the ways that libraries are changing. And they might be surprised to find that there's more than books and old notes there. So yeah, go out there, go to your library and have the experience.
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Do you work or volunteer at a library? If so, you may be very interested to know that the search for libraries to take part in the next edition of the Europe challenge is going to be opening next month. Libraries who take part get access to funding and support as well as going to meet up and exchange ideas with other libraries from all across Europe. So if you're interested, keep an eye on the European Cultural Foundation's website for more details on that in May, you will find the link in the show notes.
ISOLATION INSPIRATION - 35’51”
K: What have you been enjoying this week?
D: Well, this is a slightly weird recommendation.
K: Is it weirder than last week's courgette flowers?
D: Yes, considerably.
K: Okay…
D: It's a piece of clothing. And more specifically, it's a piece of clothing for a cat. Because here in the Netherlands, it's early spring, and the birdsong is erupting gloriously. It's a very busy time out there for all those birds and a very musical time as well. But also an exciting time for your cat to potentially snatch some of those birds as their prey. And as we've discussed before on the show, cats are a serious threat to biodiversity. According to a global study from 2020, pet cats kill between four to 10 times more wildlife per hectare than comparable native predator species. So if you are a cat owner, which I now am, and your cat goes outside, which mine also does, we have to think about the impact that our cat is having on the natural environment, especially when birds are busy nesting. And one of the obvious things to do is to put a bell on your cat so that the potential prey can hear them coming. However, there are some people who say that this drives the cat mad with the constant jangling sound.
K: It also probably drives the owners mad, doesn't it?
D: Yeah, potentially. So this is where my recommendation comes in. For our beautiful cat Sadie, I suspect she's too clumsy to ever catch any animal anyway, but we have brought her a very special collar, a collar fit for a queen. It's actually a bit like a large reflective, Elizabethan ruff. It's multicoloured and has a really tasteless pattern on it. But it's so gauche that the birds that she could potentially eat see her very clearly before she manages to catch them and kill them. All this, and she doesn't have the annoying jingle jangle of a bell following her everywhere. The collars are made by a company in the USA called Birdsbesafe. Their website states that to date, seven scientific studies in five countries have shown an average of more than 60 percent reduction in birds caught when cats wear the collar cover. But you don't have to order it from the States if you're in Europe. I got mine online from the Belgian Royal League for the Protection of the Birds. I'll put a link to that webshop in the show notes, but go and check our Instagram, @europeanspodcast, where I promise to post a picture of Sadie sporting her majestic and slightly silly collar.
K: Yes please.
D: Feel free to dive into the debate in the comments about whether or not it's worth it for the biodiversity benefits, or whether we are abusing our cat by sending her out with this look.
K: I like that it has the added benefit of making the humans laugh because cats are so dignified that it's kind of satisfying to see them made to look really stupid.
D: I agree. We did have some rather public humiliation with this collar recently. We have like a neighbourhood Whatsapp group and a neighbour down the road posted a picture of our cat in the collar on the neighbourhood Whatsapp group saying like, ‘What are the owners of this poor cat thinking of, putting their cat in such a ridiculous collar?’ We were like, ‘That's ours. It's for biodiversity’
K: Yeah, I bet that shut them up!
D: Yeah. Anyway, we did get some support. Some people came to Sadie’s defence saying they thought she looked fabulous. And I think it's good to shake up cat fashion a bit and shock people into realising that there are other options for collars. I don't know, it feels like queering up cat fashion a bit. And we're saving a few birds in the meantime. So yeah, that's my tip for the week.
K: Very good tip. Thank you.
D: What have you been enjoying?
K: A bit of a tone change, I'm a good chunk of the way through a novel that I was given by my good friend, and a supporter of this podcast actually, Meg Clement. Thanks Meg! And the novel is the Shadow King by Maaza Mengiste. It's set in Ethiopia during the invasion by Italy in 1935. And I have to confess that this is a part of Europe's colonial history that I didn't really know that much about before reading this book, and I still want to know a lot more. But it's an absolutely fascinating story about the women who went to fight against colonial forces, Ethiopian women fighting the Italians. And you know, women often get erased from the stories that we tell about conflict. So it's really good to read a novel where the central characters are women working their way through this war. We also do meet some men including a Jewish Italian war photographer. It's quite a brutal book. It's not an easy read, but the writing is really really beautiful. And it was shortlisted actually for the Booker Prize a few years ago, very, very deservedly. But yeah, I really recommend it. It is called the Shadow King and it is by Maaza Mengiste.
HAPPY ENDING - 40’59”
D: I've got a druggie Happy Ending for you all this week. Some new research published in the journal Scientific Reports indicates that humans were getting high on hallucinogenic drugs around 3000 years ago in Spain.
K: Woohoo! Go humans!
D: Scientists have been analysing locks of hair found in a cave in Menorca, and they have found three psychoactive substances on these locks of hair which incidentally were also dyed red. They think the dyeing of the hair and the drug-taking took place during rituals in the cave that also served as a funeral site. I'm too scared to try hallucinogenic drugs myself, paracetamol is my thing.
K: Wild.
D: But I do think there is something that kind of makes sense about combining funeral celebrations with hallucinogenic drug-taking and dyeing your hair red.
K: Go on.
D: I'm behind this. Don't try it at home kids, but I thought it was a fun discovery.
K: I might add that to my non-existent funeral plans. Everybody has to get completely off their heads on mushrooms. Love it, great idea.
* * *
K: Right, I'm off. I think I might go and get one of those rentable e-scooters in the street for one of the last times.
D: Oh, yeah, they've been banned!
K: Yeah, democracy has spoken. We had a referendum on it, and only 7 percent of voting Parisians took part, but apparently they were the 7 percent who really hate the scooters.
D: Wow.
K: RIP, what an era it's been. So hopefully I will survive that journey and see you next week, when we will be bringing you a fresh episode of European miscellanea as usual on Thursday.
D: Happy memories of you, of photos in The Guardian of you trying them out and cycling around Paris.
K: That was a great gig.
D: Amazing photoshoot.
K: Thank you.
D: We should pose them on the Instagram as a way of commemorating this time in Paris in history.
K: Head to @europeanspodcast on Instagram to see pictures of Dominic's cat wearing a humiliating ruff and me on an e-scooter.
D: You can also find us on Twitter, which is a very weird place right now, but we're still on it – for now anyway – so go to @europeanspod for that. Or send us an email: hello [at] europeanspodcast.com. We love hearing from you.
K: The show was produced this week by me and Wojciech Oleksiak, with thanks to our friends at the European Cultural Foundation.
D: See you all next week!
K: A la prochaine.
D: Bye!
