Philip and Laci

Philip recently found out that his classmate was a member of a far-right group. This is what happened when the two of them sat down to talk.

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Reporting by Philip Pollak; production by Katy Lee and Dominic Kraemer; editing by Katy Lee; artwork by RTiiiKA Rosa ter Kuile; music by Jim Barne.

With huge thanks to Natalie Nougayrède and Emily Schultheis for their editorial advice.

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The original Hungarian audio and an annotated English transcript can be found here (password-protected).

Thanks for listening.

• Episode Transcript

  Below, you will find a full transcript of Philip’s conversation with Laci. Parts of this conversation are very disturbing. We have done our best to contextualise and push back against Laci, by adding notes for clarity, linking to additional material, and warning readers in cases where Laci’s words are discriminatory or misleading. [Our annotations are in brackets, in bold.] The original Hungarian audio can be found at the bottom of this page.

  Philip: Alright. First of all, let me send my greetings to the dear listeners who tuned in today, as well as to Laci who’s here with me in the studio. Laci is a member of the only recently formed Légió Hungária movement, which is a far-right youth organisation here in Hungary. Hello, Laci.

  Laci: Hi.

  Philip: Let me begin with thanking you for agreeing to this interview. I am aware that it is rather unusual for you to appear on any liberal media outlet, which brings me to my first question: Why do we hear so little about the organisation? Is that a choice by the Hungarian media, or is it a deliberate move coming from the movement itself, to preserve its mysticism?

  Laci: So. To answer your first question, Légió Hungária has never opposed appearing in any Hungarian or foreign media outlets. This already happened, for instance, on the occasion of the “Day of Honour” remembrance. [Each February since the 1990s, far-right organisations in Hungary have organised commemorations for the so-called 'Day of Honour', marking the attempt by Nazi German and collaborating Hungarian troops to break through the lines of the Soviet Red Army in 1945 during the siege of Budapest. In recent years these events have increasingly attracted right-wing activists from across Europe.] I don't know if you managed to have a look at our latest event? We aren’t the ones who have been building the wall; as a matter of fact, we’re the ones who have wanted to tear it down. There is an article about that on our website, which is also available on our Facebook site, where you can see that on October 23 we did tear down this wall and were finally covered by the media. By the Hungarian media, that is. [On October 23, 2019, Légió Hungária descended upon Auróra, a bar and community centre in Budapest which rents office space to various NGOs including LGBTQ, Jewish and Roma support groups. Far-right protesters set fire to a rainbow flag outside the building, and daubed it with neo-Nazi graffiti. We made a podcast about Auróra, which mentioned this incident, in December 2019.]

  Now, regarding interviews that we or maybe Béla Incze or other leaders of similar organisations give. [Béla Incze is the leader of Légió Hungária.] Those are unfortunately not certain to be published. In that perspective we suffer our fair share of disadvantages; even though Fidesz is a right-wing party, it is obvious that we don’t represent the same views as they do. Therefore, they refuse to cover us. [Laci is suggesting here that Hungary’s governing Fidesz party gets media coverage because it is not as far-right as Légió Hungária]. I must add, though, that we had a recent breakthrough regarding the matter on the “Day of Honour” where we were featured on “Informátor”, which is a show on Hír TV. Naturally, some of the content that was presented by one of our leading figures was nevertheless cut out of the programme.

  Philip: Now, for everyone who doesn’t know you or the organisation, how would you describe the organisation, in your own words?

  Laci: So, this is a movement independent from any parties. It is a so-called “action task force” which represents far-right ideology. We have three main points, which are: tradition; consciousness or awareness; and the community.

  Under tradition, we mean our fight against practical materialism [a concept in Marxist philosophy] and atheism. Awareness stands for the perseverance of our identity which narrowly is the region of the Carpathian Basin, and more broadly all of Europe. [Laci is referring to a region which includes Hungary, Slovakia, Ukraine, the Romanian region of Transylvania, and the Hungarian part of Serbia.] And last but not least is community, which obviously represents our struggle to preserve our ideological community, which to be honest is under constant attack. Especially by the liberal wing, which doesn’t accept the fact that we have a different opinion on the world. This is certainly one thing that we’d like to defend as well as our families, meaning the protection of the traditional family format. That’s why we occasionally appear at events held by the LGBT community, where we voice our dislike. But of course this isn’t always successful, because the authorities prevent us from appearing there. [While far-right activists may have found themselves restricted from attending LGBT events on occasions, the general climate for LGBT rights has grown worse under Fidesz. See this Twitter thread.]

  Philip: Along with your own organisation, there are numerous others which are similar to yours. And if I am correctly informed, you yourself along with Béla Incze were part of Hatvannégy Vármegye before you formed this new movement. [Hatvannégy Vármegye are a far-right group largely focused on attacking the Roma minority.] So what was happening before the split, and why did you feel the need to create a new platform? And what is that certain something that only you, and not Hatvannégy Vármegye or Betyársereg [another far-right Hungarian group], for instance, can provide?

  Laci: Everyone’s aware of the split from Hatvannégy Vármegye. I was still sort of an intern during my time in Hatvannégy Vármegye, because these organisations rely on hierarchy. Anyway, during my time as an intern, a structural change took place which led to our separation from the movement, which in conclusion gave birth to this new organisation. Mainly we felt the need to create it because we couldn’t stay without representation. Imagine being in our situation. We just left.

  Philip: But why did you leave?

  Laci: I’d rather leave that up to Bulcsú Hunyadi who is obsessed with us over at Political Capital, and let him figure it out for us. [Bulcsú Hunyadi is a Hungarian political analyst who comments on right-wing extremism. This was Laci's way of avoiding the question.] I prefer to keep this to ourselves. But to circle back to you, we had to! We were born for this, so to speak. To activate ourselves and to protect the ideas that we defend. Which are the three main points I mentioned earlier, and which are crucial for the organisation. To protect Europe from being flooded by ideas that we absolutely can’t agree with and we consider to be destructive. Like liberalism or Marxism or even similar branches of practical materialism or atheism. So that’s why we had to be created, to show others how to live normally or in sanity.

  That’s exactly what happened on October 23 [the day of the attack on Auróra]. Basically they couldn’t find anything to pester us over, we weren't disorganised or sort of a non-union. So the story, instead of the usual criticism, was about stuff like the fact that no one was smoking among us, and that we kept order while we were marching. [There was not actually any positive media coverage of this kind. Laci is perhaps referring to the distinction he makes between his own group, and far-right hooligans who have previously appeared drunk at protests.] In short, that we follow our rules — rules which ought to be followed by everyone, even people who are simply sympathetic towards our cause.

  And now to your second question, about how we are supposed to provide anything more than the others. I’m not sure that I can give you an answer to that. Betyársereg, for instance — I only have a vague idea about their goals, and their function. But I think Légió Hungária’s strength really lies in our ability to coordinate and organise ourselves. There’s truly nothing objectionable about us on this matter, and I think this sets us aside from others in the field. For example, national radicalism, which by now is mostly done, and which we would like to get rid of completely. National radicalism does not have a future. You see, there’s a big difference here. As you said correctly in the introduction, we aren't part of the national radicalist groups, but a part of the far-right instead.

  Philip: What’s the main difference, in your opinion?

  Laci: If you look at national radicalism, it pretty much unfolded in 2006 during the riots against Gyurcsány. [In September 2006, protests broke out in Hungary after a recording emerged of Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsány. In it, he could be heard admitting that his Socialist Party had no significant achievements to speak of during the past four years of government, and had lied about the state of the economy in order to win re-election the previous April. Far-right protesters and football hooligans were soon accused of 'hijacking' the protests.] Because of that turmoil at the time, it held certain members in its ranks who weren’t necessarily committed to the ideology itself, but were simply there “to have a good time” and who quickly disappeared after.

  I don’t know if you read about it, but that community used to be a lot bigger than it is now. That’s what I would call a national radical base. That’s where I got my start as well, in Jobbik. [Founded in 2003, Jobbik started as a radical nationalist party. Over the last five years, however, it has attempted to rebrand itself as a more mainstream right-wing party, in the hope of strengthening its electoral results.]

  Maybe Jobbik at that time already wasn’t part of it, but that’s what I would refer to as national radicalism, and today Mi Hazánk seems to be a continuation of that project. [Mi Hazánk, or "Our Homeland", is a far-right group formed by former Jobbik members in 2018 in protest at the party's shift away from its radical roots.] The far-right is completely different from them as well as in the practical methods, as well as the ideology.

  Philip: What do you think stood behind this fragmentation? And why is it so severe?

  Following Bulcsú’s narrative, he mainly saw the difference between the groups working today as being separate in function and tasks as well. [Philip’s question here is inspired by the work of Bulcsú Hunyadi, the aforementioned analyst.] Meaning that you guys mainly focus on European “race preservation”, and international homophobia, whereas Betyársereg, for instance, focus on domestic issues and domestic ethnic tensions. Would you agree that you are more or less still one group, just working on different issues? Or are there in fact such severe disagreements between the organisations that it would be impossible to work together?

  Laci: Saying that we just split the tasks is utterly and completely wrong. Betyársereg, if I’m not mistaken, was formed in 2009 and have tackled their tasks ever since. I’m not completely familiar with their work, but I have seen that in certain Roma-related questions, Roma problems, they take action and get on the next train and visit rural areas to take a stand and disagree with whatever that takes place there. [One example of this is the eastern Hungarian village of Gyöngyöspata, where Roma residents have faced repeated harassment from far-right activists — not least over this case, where Roma families were awarded compensation after their children were segregated at school.]

  But you need to take into account that we are targeting European issues and building a European network, and are a part of a larger coalition inside the radical alliance which merges mainly Central-Eastern Europeans from different countries. As well as in Festung Europa which has members reaching from Die Rechte in Germany, to French representatives, all the way to Eastern European members. [Festing Europa, or "Fortress Europe", is an international alliance of European far-right groups.] It is a much broader pan-European collaboration.

  Philip: It’s very interesting that you brought this up, because this reminds me a lot of Győrkös István’s troops. [Győrkös István was a leading figure of the Hungarian far-right during the 1990s. He was the founder and leader of the Hungarian National Front, a neo-Nazi paramilitary movement. In 2019 he was sentenced to life in prison for killing a police officer.]

  Even the geological similarities are striking; he’s from Győr, you’re from Csorna. [Csorna is a town about 30 kilometres from Győr, the principal city in northwest Hungary.] Now, they of course were formed back in 1992 under the name of the Hungarian National Front. And what is frightening me is that within that group, the paramilitary aspect was a strong feature of their platform.

  Béla Incze [the leader of Légió Hungária] said in an interview on K.O. [a debate show on a rightwing YouTube channel] that he sees the future in the “werewolf action forces”, which were terror sleeper cells after World War II. So how much of that is actually part of your goals?

  Laci: Umm, let me see. It’s hard for me to answer this, because at the time I didn’t even know Béla that well. So I don’t know what he said, and how he said it, and what the context was. But one has to acknowledge that there are certain changes occurring even within the group. Now, these changes obviously aren’t the changes that occur in politicians, because we stand by our values. But the way these changes manifest themselves, or the way we communicate, might get rejigged. I don’t know how Béla meant it at the time, or what the context was. But, yes: militarism is part of it. We call it conservative militarism. We work out. [The group publishes photographs of its military-style bootcamps on its website.] It’s not enough for us to be mentally agile — we need to be physically present in our strength as well. It’s really the only way forward. If someone only trains mentally, but neglects his soul and body, then he lacks harmony.

  Philip: Alright, but what’s the purpose of that? Setting aside the old Greek Calogathic theory that in a healthy body lives a healthy soul, what function does it serve? Is there a sense of mission behind all of this, that the Légió would like to achieve with this? Plus, a physical workout is one thing, but including weaponry, and to submit interviews like that [the interview on K.O.], raises an atmosphere of stand-by and preparedness.

  Laci: Yeah, it certainly does raise that. In the ideology of the movement, a worldview is included: that we can relate to those who were allies of the Third Reich, who performed incredibly virtuous tasks regarding the direction in which they were pushing Europe at the time. And speaking honestly, that’s what we would like to continue. But it’s still undecided inside the group, to which degree this military aspect should be included in our actions. What's certain is that, if you look around on our website, you can find that we recently held the first Nationalist Sport Camp which was attended by those who already have the proper training. But we are far from being a terror group which plans to murder people, so you don’t have to be afraid of that.

  Philip: So all of the advocated violence is more of a show-act, rather than a true threat to citizens or minorities?

  Laci: We don’t like to perform show-acts, that’s for sure. But if we were to just sit in front of a computer and talk to one another, or if we were getting together and just talked to one another, then I’d have no idea what I was doing. No, we’d like to be active on the streets as well, as an action-movement. And in case certain situations were to arise, we wouldn’t turn to violence, but we would find the proper responses in case we were to be attacked.

  Philip: So only as a reaction to some sort of aggression, but you yourself wouldn’t start an action?

  Laci: Look, in my opinion the National Guard — who were the flagship of national radicalism back in the day — would have, and did. [Laci is referring to the Hungarian Guard, often referred to as the National Guard — Jobbik’s de facto paramilitary wing.] But we don’t agree with that. At the time a certain … let me not even comment on their appearance... a guardsman of a certain worldview would show up at a square and start, quote-unquote, to “bully” gypsies. [Laci is again drawing a distinction with his own group, which he regards as better-behaved and more orderly in their appearance than earlier radical groups, associated with drunken hooliganism.] Now, we don’t agree with this at all. We won’t just randomly show up at places and start bashing gypsies, because that’s not who we are. We are a lot smarter than this, and we’d like to keep it that way. We therefore only would turn to violence when it’s truly necessary, which might be the protection of our families and the three main pillars I talked about.

  Philip: So what would be the situation in which you feel yourself directly threatened and which would call for violence?

  Laci: Alright. So, in the summer, in Angyalföld where my dormitory is, a Roma was a perpetrator of a nasty deed. He grabbed the necklace from a woman’s neck. [This incident aside, the stereotype associating Roma with disproportionate criminal behaviour is a key plank in prejudice against the minority. As Philip later points out, the areas most affected by crime in Hungary are not those with the biggest Roma populations.] Now, in situations like this, I think it is everyone's duty — not just ours — to step up. The man got caught later and actually got a proper doing [a beating] from the police, but that’s why we don't tackle Roma crime. Even though it would be very important, that’s not what we are made for. And unfortunately there’s no political party which would care about this.

  Philip: Don’t you think that Mi Hazánk would be competent in filling that vacancy?

  Laci: Sure, there’s no question about their competency. But even they could go further. There are danger zones. If you go to eastern Hungary you’ll see how frightened people are. [As you will see from the police reports cited later on, Laci exaggerates the situation. However, eastern Hungary is a tough region to live in, with stubbornly high unemployment following the closure of mines and major factories that provided jobs during the communist era. The large Roma minority in this region “has been gradually pushed to the periphery of the social spectrum through systematic racism,” Philip later told us. “They form the perfect stereotype as something foreign, unwilling to adjust to the way of life while also grabbing the profit of a decent citizen of the nation (for example, welfare, education, social representations etc.) This is deemed as a call to arms in the far-right.”]

  I’m sure we have a different standpoint on the Gyöngyöspata incident [the Roma school discrimination case] too. But if you look into it, for instance even Hír TV questioned some of the Hungarian people, and they tell you very tough stories about the minority over there. Which might not even be a minority any more around there. [According to the last census in 2011, 91.2% of the local population in Gyöngyöspata were ethnic Hungarians and 12.3 percent Roma. While this data is now nine years old, Laci's speculation that Hungarians are now in the minority there seems a significant exaggeration.] So if you look around you’ll see that the Hungarian people are under such an extensive attack that we can’t no longer tolerate this. But if in the future similar aggressions were to be inflicted upon the Hungarian community anywhere — from the side of the Roma of course, because let’s be honest, the Roma-Hungarian cohabitation is a massive problem in Hungary these days — it is clear that we have an obligation to be present. Not to be present in that way, but to take a stand against what is happening.

  So, not to beat them to death — I rather avoid that, because I mostly think of them as primitive creatures which are driven by instinct. Because to be honest most of them lack the education and the capabilities to think. [Laci’s discriminatory language here indicates that he barely views Roma people as humans. He does, however, see them as victims of unfortunate social circumstances.]

  Philip: Which is exactly what the Gyöngyöspata conflict is actually all about.

  Laci: Yes, yes.

  Philip: It’s once again interesting you decided to bring this up. In the face of objectivity, according to the annual crime report published by police.hu in 2019, the highest number of any committed crimes in the country are actually occurring in Győr and Nagyszeben… [Philip misspoke here in his reference to Nagyszeben, which is the Hungarian name for Sibiu in Romania. He later told us he meant to refer to Szekszárd, a city in southern Hungary which along with Győr has some of the highest crime rates in the country. The links to the police reports he cited (here and here) unfortunately no longer work.]

  Laci: Unfortunately…

  Philip: Indeed, but ethnically speaking, these regions are far from the plurality of the east. [You can check out a map showing the density of Hungary’s regional Roma population here.]

  Laci: Of course, of course.

  Philip: Anyway, I don’t want to spend too much time on the topic, because as you said you primarily focus on other subjects. Moving back to politics: is it imaginable that Mi Hazánk will reach a similar amount of support as Jobbik did before, when all these movements lined up behind them? Is there an affinity — that you might work together on reaching your political goals?

  Laci: No! And that’s a clear no! Nobody feels an urge to move in that direction, because that’s exactly what we left behind us. Many of us are coming from Jobbik; even the leadership had close ties to Jobbik. The only difference is that they left earlier because they’re older than I am, and they saw where party politics was leading. There’s a saying in our community: “Where big politics starts is where principles end”. And that’s pretty much what happened with Jobbik. To be honest I have absolutely no opinions on Mi Hazánk, positive or negative. I wish them all the best and I hope they’ll stay active. And I’m not saying that what they are is bad, but you have to make a lot of immoral compromises in politics, and that’s not something that I or the movement can identify with.

  Philip: What do you see as your biggest challenge? You’re still fairly new on the scene...

  Laci: We were formed a year and a half ago [in 2018. Philip and Laci spoke in March 2020].

  Philip: Yes, you were formed a year and a half ago, indeed. So what is your biggest obstacle to overcome right now?

  Laci: We’d like to achieve a number of things. One of those would be to defeat chauvinism, even on a European scale. [By chauvinism, Laci means a divisive competition among nation-states.] I mean we witnessed the Romanian attack on the cemetery in Úz Völgye — we published a statement about that, saying this should be condemned by our allies as well. If you properly look into this, you can even find some content on our website. [This refers to a controversial 2019 decision by the Romanian government to open a Hungarian World War I cemetery to Romanian victims too. It sparked an ugly confrontation between members of the local Hungarian community and their Romanian neighbours.]

  Philip: — I’m aware, I saw it next to the agenda opposing Nelson Mandela’s statue in Budapest. But I’m sorry to interrupt.

  Laci: No worries. So yeah, after that we had a little “performance” [a protest] in the cemetery of Kozma Utca, in order to encourage others to denounce the action as well. So we don’t support chauvinism, and want to fight it.

  Philip: Would you mind explaining what the difference is between your actions and chauvinism, to those who might confuse the two as the same? And why is it important that you two stay separate?

  Laci: We can’t be confused with it because… For example, Karpatská Sic, a Ukrainian organisation which is an ally of ours and our partner in the Radical Alliance, was accused of hating Hungarians, and so on. [Laci brings this up as an example of far-right groups overcoming former ethnic tensions in order to campaign on shared interests, such as homophobia and racism.] But nothing could be further from the truth! We have a pretty good interview which is available for everyone to read, and you’ll see that, they aren’t anything of the sort. We’ve been at an event over there in Ungvár, and I’ve heard from my comrades that they have the same determination in their eyes as we do in ours. [Ungvár is a city in western Ukraine, known today as Uzhhorod. The city borders Slovakia and is also not far from the Hungarian border.] A determination which we carry in our lives.

  We are far from being chauvinists. Romanians could be called chauvinists; if I’m not mistaken there’s a Romanian military grave in the cemetery in Kozma Utca that we could have just as easily attacked, but we didn’t. Because we don’t do these things. That’s what I mean by chauvinism; we could go to the memorial standing on Freedom Square [a monument to the Soviet liberation of Hungary in World War II from Nazi occupation] and start shattering it too. But we don’t, because we think of it as unethical, and reject these notions. Inside nationalism, you find chauvinism and patriotism. And we are patriots, far from chauvinists. There’s a reason why we’re friendly with… alright, except for Slovakian and Romanians… I’m not even sure if in Slovakia similar organisations even exist, but in Ukraine for example…

  Philip: Well I don’t know about the civil sphere, but judging by the last election, the Slovakian far-right is alive and well.

  Laci: Yes but those are parties, and we wouldn’t cooperate with parties. That’s out of the question. It’s certain that we won’t cooperate with parties.

  Philip: Do you think that organisations like Festung Europa would have been able to operate on this scale before 2015? You yourself have already been involved in the radical-right sphere, and we saw that the migration crisis brought these fringes together. What I’m asking is if there were any tendencies to unify the far-right before these events.

  Laci: I’ve got to say that I think we are the first to do this. We are on top of our game. That’s more or less what the plan was, anyway. I mean, it wasn’t planned, but we were the first ones to pay attention to this. [Laci is suggesting here that Légió Hungária are the first Hungarian far-right group to try to organise internationally.] I haven’t seen anything similar to us prior to our work, either on the part of Hatvannégy Vármegye, nor — and especially not — on the part of Betyársereg. I don’t know about Jobbik, when they were still following our ideas, what sort of networks they were creating at the time. But it’s pretty sure to be completely different from ours, because they were a party and therefore thinking along party lines, which we don’t. Back in 2015… I assume you could have started to form something, but we obviously only started when the movement was founded. Inside the External Relations Divisions, which I’m not a part of, and don’t have much to do with to be honest with you, we have people among us who work on this on a much more detailed scale. To circle back, I’m sure you could have built a similar platform at the time, but no one seemed to be interested in that, so we did it. And we did a pretty good job in doing so.

  Philip: How would you describe your position inside the movement?

  Laci: We are an organisation reliant on hierarchy. There’s the leadership which consists of multiple people, every leader has his own remit. For example, we recently got a fifth leader who’s focusing on external relations — or to put it better, on the foundation of divisions responsible for that within the community. So that we can invite more and more quality people who uphold the same ideology and are suitable to become members. Now, the leadership is followed by the division chiefs, who lead certain divisions which are divided all over the country. For example, the Csorna division, or the Pest county division. And then there are the regular members. I for one am a member, and operate as a humble member. Beneath us are only the member-candidates, who are already active inside the movement but who aren't full members yet. Plus the outer circular candidates who go through a period where we test their capabilities, and see how devoted they are. If they fit into our requirements and so on, and after completing that programme, they receive the member-candidate status. The member candidate process then usually takes up to a year or a year and a half until someone becomes a full member.

  Philip: I’m happy you brought us through the entire recruitment process, which fits perfectly with my next question. And I apologise right away because I’m gonna bring up Toroczkai again. [László Toroczkai is the leader of the Mi Hazánk far-right party.] In July 2019 during the so called “Hungarian Island” event [a far-right gathering] — which was attended by Hatvannégy Vármegye and Betyársereg and, if i’m not mistaken, by you guys as well — he, and I must add jokingly, brought up the idea to include techno and house music at the events to attract young people into the circle, after complaining about the fact that he only seen the same 20 to 30 faces at the anti-Pride protests for the last decade. Which makes it, for me, rather obvious that you have a problem in this sense. So what inspired you to become a member, back in the day?

  Laci: First of all, let me correct you — if you’re talking about the last one, held in 2019, we didn’t attend that one… Or was it maybe the Felvidéki Magyar Sziget? [Felvidék refers to the part of southern Slovakia home to the Hungarian minority. It has its own local version of the ‘Hungarian Island’ event.]

  Philip: No, it’s the regular one.

  Laci: Well, yeah, I’ve heard about Laci’s [Toroczkai’s] statement… I think he was referring to Budaházy [György Budaházy, a convicted terrorist who attacked several socialist and liberal party members’ homes and offices with Molotov cocktails. He is “a symbol of what the far-right has been 20 years,” Philip explained. “Nowadays, they are trying to shift gears and stay appealing to the youth.”]

  Philip: Yes indeed.

  Laci: Exactly, it was when they were protesting against homosexual propaganda. Yes, well, to answer your question: what drove me to become part of all this in my youth? First of all, I have to say that I didn’t receive any sort of a parental “education” that would have guided me to this path. It was more of an apolitical family where they wouldn’t talk about politics. There were no conflicts, no discussions, nothing of that sort. One could say that I was happily passing my time until I turned 17, and then I heard these words — the ideology — through Jobbik at that time, where you could hear that there was a “somebody” behind these words. For example, Előd Novak, who was a very inspiring figure for me, and some local Jobbik representatives who had a similar ideology. [Novak is a former senior Jobbik politician who has since defected to Mi Hazánk.] That’s more or less how I brought these ideas into my family, resulting in my mother's affection for Mi Hazánk. And if I’m not mistaken, she’s since become a member as well.

  I also noticed a lot of problems in the countryside, when we were living in Berend, close to Csorna and Kapuvár. I was robbed three times in my life, and everytime the perpetrator was of Roma descent. Now, we in our family didn’t have any problems with the Roma; we weren't bad-mouthing and complaining about them as some people do. As a matter of fact we actually helped them out, and what I got in return, so to speak, was that the boy from the family whom we were helping stole my bicycle. Then it happened another two times. First when the Bogdán family stole my flip-flops — a family in which, by the way, half of them are behind bars.. Anyway, I later saw my flip-flops on him [one of the family members] in school.

  The second time it happened was when I was really friendly with the Roma kids from the neighbourhood. I would even say that we were real friends at the time. And as with a lot of kids, FIFA was really popular among us. I mean, it still is. But I stopped playing in 2010 after a friend of mine stole the CD from my computer. He was Roma. [We are not able to verify these personal experiences of Laci’s. For further discussion of the stereotype of Roma people as associated with crime, see later in the transcript.]

  After all of this I came to think that even when I help them and take them in, and they can’t value it or reward it, I’m not obliged to accept them either. This was more or less evolving inside of me at the same time they [Jobbik] came along. I think it was due to this that I could really understand what Jobbik was preaching, and that’s when I joined them.

  From 2013 to 2016 I was, so to speak, a “sympathizer” of the party and I decided… I mean, I never was a member of the “real” party, I only became a member of the youth wing. But I had already quit in 2018 before the elections, because I saw that immoral things were taking place. That’s what drove me to join such an organisation as Hatvannégy Vármegye, even though at the time I had no clue what would happen to it. The split, I mean.

  Anyway, I already knew at the time that for my life, and the way of life I was choosing for myself, I needed something that represented my morals. To be honorable and ...not to enter politics, because I could have just as well continued. I was even offered the leadership of the 5th district youth wing in Jobbik after I moved to Budapest to study. But I declined the notion put forward by MP Gergő Farkas. What I realised was that this is my true ideology, I don’t want to give up my principles. To me, authority and respect are of immense importance, these two words mean the world to me. To respect one another to a certain degree; and to have someone you can look up to and who has authority. For me, that someone is Béla Incze. To me, he possesses a lot of charisma, and that's how he, quote-unquote, “seduced” me into following him and his movement, which of course isn’t just his, but all of ours. I mean, our shared unity is what makes this a movement, and yes, we might have our hierarchical ranks. But everyone has a say in how we function, and that’s damn important.

  Philip: Jumping back to the beginning, do you remember how you discovered Előd Novák and Jobbik for yourself?

  Laci: I was watching parliamentary debates on YouTube, just before the elections in 2013. I was 17 and I heard about the upcoming elections, and I actually was able to vote because the elections were on April 6, and I had my birthday on March 13. So I was just turning 18, and in less than a month we had elections.

  I vigorously went through all of the parties running, and then I looked into the speeches given by Jobbik and I felt sort of attracted. The problem was real, and they finally said it out loud! Something which other parties didn’t do before they were around. Maybe MIÉP [the Hungarian Justice and Life Party, a nationalist party which dominated the hard-right in the 1990s before the rise of Jobbik], but I don’t know much about them.

  Anyway, they were talking about stuff well beyond PC language, which was deemed as taboo in Hungarian politics. They talked about the difficulties regarding the Roma-Hungarian cohabitation and numerous other issues, like the amount of political thievery which was either neglected or completely ignored by other parties. Now that’s what made them appeal to me at the time. Like Előd Novák, who fought extremely radically for… for example, the release of a list of secret agents during communism, which to be honest still wouldn’t be a bad idea.

  Philip: So just to clarify, there was no one in your immediate surroundings when you were growing up who would have influenced you in any way, and most of it came to you through YouTube…

  Laci: Exactly.

  Philip: You know, I can relate a little bit, given that I come from the south of Slovakia. In my youth the Hungarian-Slovakian tensions, which were fuelled by Ján Slota at the time, were fairly high. [Ján Slota is the co-founder of the far-right Slovak National Party.] And as I was arriving from Germany with my parents, I didn’t speak any Slovakian. So even I myself had — for a relatively short amount of time — a more conservative worldview, because the people who accepted me were simply more conservative. What I’m trying to say is that I know how it feels to be part of something like this. What I would like to ask though is, given that all of this forms such a vital part in your identity... Actually, how much of your current worldview do you think forms your identity?

  Laci: That’s actually a good question because I don’t feel that I’m finished forming my identity. Actually, no! I’m quite sure about my identity, but I’m not sure about my worldview yet. I’m far from being ready in my worldview. I’d still like to read Mein Kampf, and get into Hitler's speeches, but I also would like to learn about critical readings of our ideology. It’s important for me not just to educate myself with materials I believe in, but to inform myself about views with which I disagree with. So when I’m confronted with criticism or other perspectives I can argue with reason why I disagree with, for example, Marx’s teaching. Because I read them. I am very mature in my identity, though. I follow the traditional family model, the Hungarian identity, and other nationalist ideas which are a part of this. But in my worldview I'm not at that point yet to step on a podium and say confidently, that here I am and I’m capable of answering every question you have.

  Philip: Do you see a future in which you're not a member of Légió Hungaria anymore, or is that out of the question at this point?

  Laci: I don’t! And I don’t plan to leave anytime soon. I feel really good in this crowd, and we aren’t trying to reach any power. We’re not a party, and if we don’t succeed in our goals in which we’re constantly suppressed and hindered by the liberals, who suppress us under the guise of tolerance, freedom and equality... And as we came to see with Auróra, for example, it’s a fairly broad network that’s in use.

  Philip: What do you mean by that? Which were their actions by which you felt suppressed?

  Laci: For instance, on the night of question [when the rainbow flag was burned in front of Auróra]the new mayor András Pikó and the police chief were incredibly fast in their responses to the events.

  Philip: Right, but during the “Budaházy incident”[another incident involving the far-right activist György Budaházy; this time, disturbing a movie screening at Auróra depicting the struggle of the gay community around Europe. He refused to leave the premises even after Auróra closed; the police failed to respond to Auróra’s call to escort him out of the building.] the complete opposite was true under the former administration. Meaning that this doesn’t necessarily show Auróra’s power over the issued response.

  Laci: No!

  Philip: It might have more to do with the municipal elections, no?

  Laci: No! This is about András Pikó’s and the police chief’s immediate arrival at the scene. This isn’t even the point; the point is that after that night, two members of congress held speeches in opposition of our efforts, as well as the embassy of Israel. Making it quite clear what these organisations like Auróra are connected to. Revealing the deep state. Despite all of this it’s important to remember that people of this status don’t defend just anybody. And I had something else on mind as well...

  Philip: Sorry if I interrupted you.

  Laci: No worries, you didn’t. So yeah, it seems like it was already pre-agreed that these people will be there, so they must have been in talks. Therefore, the ties to these people are clear as day. It’s beyond a doubt that they have some ominous backing, which we clearly don’t have. [Claims that shadowy forces are behind world events are a familiar theme among far-right groups the world over. However, they have particular resonance in Hungary, the birthplace of George Soros. Earlier this year we interviewed Emily Tamkin, author of ‘The Influence of Soros’, about conspiracy theories involving the billionaire.]

  Philip: You mentioned that they don’t defend just anybody. Who were you thinking of when you said that? Who’s excluded by “liberalism”?

  Laci: When you look at the LGBTQ propaganda, and their goals… or if you go on Facebook... you can see that we’re constantly blocked or deleted on Facebook.

  I understand that Facebook is an advocate on behalf of liberal and democratic values, but we’re constantly getting deleted for every minor discretion. I mean, even just posting a picture of our old companion-in-arms Gyuri Cseresznyés who unfortunately passed away back in 2013 gets us instantly banned. [A reference to the lead singer of right-wing metal band Titkolt Ellenállás. He died in a train accident. We have not been able to verify the details of this supposed post-blocking by Facebook.] So, to say that we live under freedom of speech is a lie. Such a thing never even existed. There always will be a larger power in place that will prevent that, like Fidesz. Only those deemed suitable by Fidesz get their voices heard. There has never even been such a thing as freedom of speech. This is especially true about our movement, which makes us immensely proud, because we managed to break through that barrier with the story in front of Auróra that’s now being blamed on us.

  Most of the time no one even bothers to interview us, and conveniently scapegoats us instead. That’s the reason behind Béla Incze’s outcry for a public discourse, to clear the air with regards to whether we’re really Nazis or not. As long as this doesn’t happen and we’re just being labelled, we are suppressed, and aren’t really capable of appearing anywhere.

  Now if you look at the liberals and the leaders of the LGBTQ movements, they have a very broad accessibility provided to them these days.

  Philip: Do you think that that’s the case with the government media outlets as well? Talking about Fidesz oppression.

  Laci: To be frank with you, I don’t know. I don’t know how much airtime Pride gets, but if you…

  Philip: István Tarlós [conservative former mayor of Budapest] said that it would be a disgrace to take part in Pride.

  Laci: Right, I get that. But it’s easy to say that because you simply don’t show up, and that’s it. But if they were to buckle up and ban that parade altogether, I could believe Fidesz when they say they oppose it. Until then, I don’t really think they particularly mind it. It’s easy to talk… I don’t recall the name of the Fidesz MP who had an entire speech about banning the homosexual parade, but at this point, action would have been long overdue. In my view the Fidesz standpoint is non-existent. It’s okay that one MP has a speech, but then it would be time to actually do something about it, and prevent this from happening.

  Philip: Don’t you think it’s ironic that you’re complaining about the false pretences of freedom of speech, how they have a bias against you, while you call for an active ban on Pride and on the — using your words — LGBTQ propaganda?

  Laci: Yeah.

  Philip: So how are these two statements compatible with one another?

  Laci: I could ask you the question of whether it’s right to unconditionally accept everybody? In my opinion it isn’t, because if you look into what they're up to... I mean, they run these sensitization campaigns even in Hungary! Let’s not even talk about the US, because conditions are brutal over there. We defend normality. In our opinion this is deviant behaviour. [For more information on the declining state of LGBT rights in Hungary, including the end of legal recognition of transgender people, see here.]

  To let a newborn child decide its gender, it’s completely abnormal, it’s overruling the law of nature. If I see posters in Budapest saying that there are no limits on age and gender, that brings me close to thinking of paedophilia… I mean AGE! I saw pictures, I don’t know if it was Hungary or not where a small child makes out with a much older man. We completely condemn that. [Laci draws a typically homophobic association between homosexuality and paedophilia.]

  These people can walk the streets, with exactly the same rights that we have, moreover if you check out western, quote unquote, “liberal democracies” — which I don’t believe in at all — they get more and more rights, in more and more countries. These are the people who are indignant and complain about not having enough rights, whereas they already have everything and they just need to live with it. It would be pretty absurd to change the laws in order for them to be able to adopt children. [In November 2020, the Hungarian government proposed a legal amendment that would effectively bar same-sex couples from adopting children.]

  For them to be able to raise a child with an uncorrupted spirit would be more than undeserving. If you have two men living in a relationship, than they most likely will raise someone who’s gay as well, and then you can see where our society will end up in 20 or 30 years. This the way into a sick society. [For years, social scientists around the world have studied this question: are LGBTQ parents less likely to raise straight children? An analysis of 72 social science reviews of studies published between 2001 and 2017 found a broad consensus among academics: LGBTQ parents are not more likely to raise LGBTQ children than heterosexual parents.]

  Philip: Simply speaking as an outsider — and I’m aware that we represent opposing views — but by the perception of an anonymous and larger crowd from which you can cherry-pick some extreme cases which may have nothing to do with the movement, and then project that on the entire community — don’t you think that you are exposing them to the same treatment that you yourself are protesting against when it comes to your own people?

  Meaning that you’re being labelled as Nazis, don’t get the chance to do interviews and can’t appear in the media? Isn’t there an ironic common ground regarding how much society feels repelled by you at present?

  Laci: On society’s part, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to label them. A year and a half ago we went to protest against Pride, and the older ladies on the sides were very active in making their voices heard, going out there to prevent this from happening. They grew up in a different world. But maybe in this perspective, even though I beg to differ, they might be suppressed.

  We go out there to show our disagreement, but compared to them our suppression is much heavier. While they are allowed to be present on Facebook and are able to recruit — alright, they don’t recruit, but engage in similar activities. We are restricted by Facebook, which delays our progress. Truth be told we’re not the biggest fans of virtual spaces, but everyone is on social media these days, therefore it’s our obligation to be represented there as well. Plus, they are allowed to appear anywhere. So what do you reckon? Who’s more suppressed? We are rejected on a much harsher scale. The second I share that I sympathise with the ideas of, let’s say, Ferenc Szállasi, or Adolf Hitler, the curtain is pulled down and that’s the end of it. [Ferenc Szálasi was the fascist leader of Hungary during the final six months of World War II, under Nazi occupation. Under his rule, some 76,000 Jews were forced on a death march towards the Austrian border; some 20,000 others were marched to the Danube River and shot.]

  Meanwhile, they walk the streets saying ‘I’m transgender, I was born in a boy’s body’, and he’s accepted right away. We can’t let that happen in Hungary! If you have a look of how many people were attending their events ten years ago, and look at their events today, you’ll see the progress. Now we, on the other hand, can’t jump to these numbers so quickly. Partly because we search for qualified people, we don’t just accept anybody in the movement. And partly because we’re being repressed by the media, and social media, so we don’t really get a platform. [It is striking that Laci clearly sees the LGBT movement as an ideology like his own; an idea that has been pushed in Poland too.]

  Philip: Interesting. I could reflect on a number of things there, to which we will circle back later. But to get to know you more personally, I wanted to ask how much you’re in contact with people who have a different opinion than you do? Are you open to new interactions, or have you just accepted society's resentment towards you?

  Laci: To be honest, I like to form a bond with people who have a similar ideology to mine, but there’s a lot of different approaches within the right as well. I have a friend for an example who idolizes the Horthy regime. [Miklós Horthy led an anti-Semitic Hungarian government, allied with Nazi Germany, through most of World War II. He denied Hitler's demands that he construct Jewish ghettos and deport Jews to concentration camps, and sought to leave the alliance with the Nazis. In 1944, however, he accepted the installation of a pro-Nazi government which would deport Jews, before changing his mind again and halting the deportations. He was eventually replaced by Szalasi.]

  I partly agree with him on a number of things, but I personally don’t think that their approach would have been enough. Despite that, I also talk to people who have a completely opposite worldview to mine. In my dormitory, for instance, there are people who are completely neutral, not committed to either side, and we have great conversations with those guys.

  When it comes to my close circle, though, I am more selective in who I get close to, but I think that’s pretty normal. I mean it’s not uncommon to have the most intimate relationship with people who are the closest to you, even in regards to their worldview. You naturally understand someone easier when you represent the same ideas.

  Having said that, there’s a certain humanity in every one of us. I’m not saying that what we do would be inhumane. I think we are humane. But, what I mean is that, for example, there’s a gay couple literally a few rooms from mine, and I’m being completely serious with you now. You see, what they choose to do within their four walls, I have no problem with that, as long as they don’t take it into the streets or Pride. I even chat along with them, which is exactly what happened last time I met one of them at uni. He said hi, I answered, we were fine. So I don’t repress them to the extent that maybe others would.

  Same goes for the Roma. I can’t say with certainty that in total and generally speaking every one of them would be “this and that, and so on”. I know people from every path of life. When I was in high school I had jobs where I was working with Roma people and we got along great. It was nice to work with them, we were in sync with each other… which shows that we are people.

  What sort of people we are will determine if we are compatible or not. A person with the same ideology as yours still can be repulsive to you. That means that I won’t necessarily be friends with someone from the far-right, because his personality still might not be to my liking.

  Philip: You know, what’s strange to me is that Pride is enlisted in your vocabulary as gay propaganda, as if the goal of the organisers would be to force homosexuality upon everyone, when in reality it’s an effort towards something that you in your dormitory already accept. The main goal of Pride is that individuals are enabled to feel free within the roles of society, to have guaranteed equal rights, even financial benefits when it comes to inheritance and so on. So the goal is to achieve something that you already accept.

  Laci: Yeah, but the truth is that I don’t accept it. You might have misunderstood me, but I’m capable of coexisting with them to a degree. I’m there in this institution, I can’t do anything about that. As I said earlier, it would be immoral and unethical to go up to them and just start to beat them up. It would look bad, and I'm not advocating for it.

  I get that they are fighting for equal or similar rights, which in my opinion they already have. I get that they are lacking recognition. In Hungary they are only allowed a registered partnership, but… But despite that, that’s not why they go into the streets.

  Then you wouldn’t have that call for attention, the ‘I’m dancing and I’m half naked and showing myself’, or the sensitizing campaigns etc. Vármegye was present at these events, which I strongly support, they showed up with György Budaházy and witnessed the sensitizing propaganda. [Footage of this can be seen towards the end of this video.]

  If all they wanted to achieve is what you said, that would be a couple of steps better, so to speak. But the way they try to influence society, and alter the education of our children, is completely unacceptable. One can not accept that.

  Philip: By the way, was there ever an outreach from the organisation, or on your behalf, to create a consensus on what Pride really means? Did you talk to any representatives or gay right advocates to clear the air as to what Pride really represents, and where the failures lie within your communication?

  Laci: If you look into what we represent, and what we stand for, then that's not worth a conversation regarding what it really is, because they most likely won’t accept us anyway and neither will we. That’s a given. I’m certain that we couldn’t sit down with one of the main organisers of Pride... But I actually don’t know that for a fact. It might even be possible, but I’m against the idea. If someone preaches ideals which are destructive to our understanding, then why would we sit down with them? We could argue about anything else, but I think it’s clear to everyone that what they represent isn’t sanity, but deviancy. And we represent sanity. They chose to represent deviancy, therefore there’s nothing left to to talk about with these people.

  Philip: Why do you act so offended by what they represent? What are your fears regarding them?

  Laci: I already pointed at it earlier. If we don’t act against it — and unfortunately what we do may not be successful either — but if we don’t do anything against the propaganda, or hinder them in their cause, then in a couple of years, or actually in just a few years, they will reach certain things they shouldn’t be reaching. Which is already a reality in a number of countries where they can marry, and adopt children, and if I’m not mistaken there’s a law in Denmark stating that a child from its 12th birthday can choose its gender, and that simply is completely abnormal. [In Denmark, children can from the age of 12 receive gender reassignment treatment in consultation with medical specialists, receiving hormone blockers whose effects are reversible. From the age of 16, they can receive access to full hormone treatment with largely irreversible effects. More information here.] That’s the direction we don’t want to head in. We don’t want to reach the level of Western Europe. The situation in Hungary is severe enough as it is, but walking in the direction and eventually reaching the standards of the West is what we are trying to prevent.

  Philip: Why do you feel like their space is affecting yours? By them being able to marry, or to raise a child as they wish to, although I don’t think that you can teach homosexuality like foreign languages during a curriculum....

  Laci: Yeah, but we had Gender Studies for a while… [The Hungarian government banned Gender Studies programmes at universities in 2018.]

  Philip: Right, but Gender Studies didn’t focus on creating gay people.

  Laci: I understand, but…

  Philip: It’s the difference between the two genders and the structures within society. It’s basically a historical and particular perception. And speaking to another social science student, I think we know how big the impact of a perspective can be on certain decades. That’s the outset of national socialism, Carl Schmitt, or even Marx. Gender Studies is just the 21st-century continuation of sociological traditions. But back to my question. By them being able to marry, and do as they please within their homes, and fight for their rights... or, it’s better to say, social action within democracies is formed in order to lobby for new legislation, and so on. How is this restricting you in any stage of your life, or any action you choose to pursue?

  Laci: This is another good question. It hinders me in the aspect of my family. If you want to start a family, like I would like to do sometime in the next five years, I don’t want my child to be exposed to this in kindergarten, or elementary school once this is more widespread. Because I don’t want to blackmail my child, saying that it can’t accept all of this and so on. I mean I would, I absolutely would, but I don’t think that this should be part of the sane way to raise a child. If my child sees something of that sort a parent obviously sends a message, clarifying that this is abnormal: “See this, my girl/boy — this is unacceptable, this is no longer sane.” And by this, he’ll understand that he mustn't be this way, because a child looks up to its parents.

  But if you socialize the way we were taught, through institutions — because they socialize too, not just childhood on its own. Needless to say, childhood still does most of the job, and if it sees a transgender mother in kindergarten or god knows what gender, I’m not really good in keeping track of them. Anyway, if he’s constantly exposed to this and then witnesses a couple of years ahead in elementary, cross-dressing children, then this will scar him and alter him. I don’t want my child or children — that’s irrelevant right now — to be exposed to someone like this, because he won’t be able to know what he’s looking at, and it would be pretty bad if he’d develop the same personality.

  Philip: If what you’re saying was true, there never would have been a gay individual during the course of history, if this was an acquired skill. Even the notion that it would be trendy or accepted is hard to believe when, as a matter of fact, most gay people are well aware of their stigma. Never mind that, there’s you guys on the radical right who make enough noise as it is. But —

  Laci: Let’s stick to “the far-right”, sorry.

  Philip: Excuse me, semantics obviously are of importance.

  Laci: Indeed.

  Philip: Nevertheless, apart from you there’s still Hungary’s ruling party which holds two thirds of the seats in parliament, which has its own opposing thoughts regarding homosexuality. To be blunt, as of this moment there’s no space for any external recognition or legitimization provided in Hungary. But only a couple of years back, even in the West there weren't any signs that it would have been easy or particularly convenient to be gay.

  Laci: First, to say that our government which holds two thirds would be anti-homosexuality — if they were, than we would see practical measures aside from all the talking.

  Philip: But what about László Kövér’s statements? [The current speaker of parliament, who has made a broad range of homophobic comments, including an infamous comparison between same-sex couples seeking to adopt children, and paedophiles.]

  Laci: Right, he thinks that. But he could take action, with us for example as well. That’s what they are lacking, the action. That’s why I can’t look up to politicians any longer — they just keep running their mouths, word after word, but I don’t sense any substance behind them at all. He could protest against it, or even as the legislative leader just ban it all together, but this isn’t happening.

  The same goes for István Tarlós [the former Budapest mayor] who didn’t even think about banning Pride. No sanctions whatsoever, and a couple of years ago they even got a cordon, which made it impossible to protest against them or to make our voices heard in any form. That’s what’s so frustrating about this in the first place, that even under István Tarlós who’s an old conservative man — who is just the type to take action — ended up changing nothing. Therefore it seems a bit far-fetched that they would be so immensely devoted to fighting or banning them. Now, about their external communications — that’s basically just politics. They mislead people via communication into believing them, and afterwards nothing happens. “I know we said this and that, but that’s all we can do about it at the moment.”

  Philip: What I was primarily referring to wasn’t necessarily the actions though, but the attitude towards the topic. What we discussed prior to that, your thesis on the why or how someone would turn gay, is I think false. What you’re preaching is in its core an unfounded fear, which — I get it if it’s too close to you, I mean, too far away from you. Still: why is there such a fear inside you, that somewhere gay people exist and they’re miles away from you? I presume you don’t hang out in the same social environment, because you like to stick to your own little group, and I presume that they like to stay within groups where they can live freely and don’t have to watch what they’re saying. Therefore I'm asking you again: what’s the barrier that doesn’t let you coexist in a society where enough room is provided physically and virtually as well?

  Laci: So you’re asking me what the barrier is?

  Philip: Exactly in what way is a homosexual human being’s existence hindering your well being?

  Laci: Their existence? I don’t know, I haven’t properly gotten around to sinking my teeth into this. But I know that in ancient Greece homosexuality very much existed. If i’m not mistaken, in Rome they were already suppressing it. [He probably is mistaken. See this piece by a British academic who studies homosexuality in the ancient world.]

  Philip: Well, it was a pretty hedonistic society...

  Laci: Exactly. [Philip doesn’t think Laci understood him here.] And the more we evolved, the stricter they got. If I’m not mistaken it was considered a crime even in the 1920s.

  Philip: …Right …

  Laci: And the Catholic Church was strongly opposed to the idea. And that’s my problem, today this is becoming widely accepted. Why can’t we coexist? Because they are growing into a larger group by the minute. I’m not old enough to have been researching this before 2010, but a lot of people kept dismissing it, saying: ‘Just at look at them, there’s only a handful of people standing at Heroes Square.’ But cautious minds within our group kept saying that this community will grow. Well, what happened? Exactly that. Now, under these circumstances, it’s out of question that I'll accept them. I mean, if someone is gay due to a certain reason, and does what he does under his roof, let them have it, I don’t bother. But! When there’s masses of them in the streets and among them a lot of people who aren’t even homosexuals, because I don’t think that there’s actually that many of them in Hungary, simply supporters. Momentum’s [a liberal party] kind of people, who support their struggle for equal rights, call attention to their inequalities and so on. That’s the problem, the supportive crowd. That’s how big their advantage is, there’s plenty of youngsters standing up for them.

  When we were at the event we saw that a big chunk of attendees weren’t gay, but supportive. You even see some parties supporting them. Their support is simply larger. Even parties and politicians are there, obviously out of interest — they’re there because of the votes, but they are there nevertheless. That’s why I can’t accept it, and that is the reason why I’m so protective of my future child. I don’t want it to find the same thing at middle school, high school and so on. Because in today's society, especially in Budapest, you already see its presence. And unfortunately they will be another Pride at Pécs. [This event was called off due to COVID-19.]

  Philip: Right, right, right… I still don’t get it. I’m sorry if I’m getting stuck in the gears here, but I think this is a rather important obstacle to overcome. Do you want some more water?

  Laci: Yes, thank you.

  Philip: You’re welcome. Alright, in order to understand this particular issue, it’s important to understand that those people who are present at the event were always part of society — only, this time they might feel that they are part of a larger crowd, with some positive feedback, especially from the West. These people finally feel brave enough to fight for their rights. I don’t think, though, that their presence can be zeroed down to a political message. We’re talking about, for example, someone's gender identity, which is an incredibly subjective thing. I don’t think that this is something you politicise, I don’t believe that anyone is a “hobby-homosexual” in DK [a left-wing political party] because it’s trendy.

  Laci: No! No! I like what you’re saying though. On the trendiness, I think HUN TV did a pretty good interview with the Pride organisers who were at the thing, and there was this guy who even said that he had a girlfriend but was crossdressing as a woman. He has no connection to this whatsoever, so he’s escaping into this. Probably something went terribly wrong within his family, maybe abuse or similar stuff and that’s why he turned to this community. [Homophobes have historically promoted the belief that homosexuality is often the result of childhood abuse. No major scientific study has found conclusive evidence of such a link.]

  You could see that he had nothing to do with being gay, he just escaped into this, and I think this shows too. There are others who are truly like that, but I honestly can’t say anything about them, because I have no clue what provokes this in humans. What’s for sure is that I point it into the direction of domestic violence, or child abuse, which makes it understandable why anybody would turn into this. A homosexual.

  Doesn’t matter if it’s a man or a woman or a teenager who’s abused at home which alters his sexual interests and turns against normality. If you look at the history of the world, for the vast majority of time only two genders existed. A man and a woman, the building blocks of a family of a society, which unfortunately...

  Philip: But these people want to be a family as well. They do not want to be the destroyers of this concept so much as they are merely trying to extend its definition.

  Laci: Yeah, but that’s what I was talking about earlier, that’s what destroys normality. This can’t qualify as “being normal”. That they want to live in families whose compounds are two men and two women, to represent each gender here, and they want to raise children. This completely overrules the laws of nature. It is completely insane that someone would choose to live like this. I simply cannot accept it.

  Philip: Look, I would understand your concerns if there was a shred of evidence supportive of the suggestion that children coming from a gay household would turn out to be gay themselves. But because we’re talking about something so deeply anchored within you, that you simply cannot choose or change, there’s nothing happening of that sort. The only difference shown by the statistics is that they might not consider beating up their parents. [Philip is light-heartedly suggesting here that a child adopted by gay parents may grow up in a happier environment than an unwanted child born to hetereosexual parents.]

  Laci: I understand.

  Philip: But in spite of that, stays primarily heterosexual.

  Laci: I understand you. If you were to be raised in a certain matter it obviously can backfire too, which is what happened with my mother for instance. But! I get that there’s research, but if I raise you in a moderate manner, and not brutally down to the core, which is what often backfires and turns someone the other way... Now, let’s observe a family — which I can’t really call a family — but let’s look at two women raising a boy. There will be difficulties. Who’s the mother? Who’s the father? It’s already lost for the child. He won’t get to see his father, who’s a man, and therefore looks like one too. And there’s my mother who gave birth to me, who carried me. Now a child that gets to a family like this when it's, let’s say, one year old.

  You know it has been proven that from age one to age six is the phase when we’re the easiest to educate, that’s when we socialise the easiest. And that child sees its two mothers, on top of the education it is going to get, because I doubt that he would be raised in a way that shows him how this and that works. I mean they can’t lecture him about how this works, when they’re living in an abnormal way, so how would he become heterosexual? I have my doubts about this whole thing. Whether he’s truly capable of becoming a heterosexual if two women are raising him. [See note above on the lack of evidence for this theory that same-sex parents cannot raise a heterosexual child.]

  Philip: Well, according to research and the math, the answer seems to be yes.

  Laci: I’ll haven’t been reading upon these to be honest, but I promise you I will after this is over.

  Philip: Sweet! Then I’m already happy about this interview as it is, these are important steps. By the way, if we have the chance to talk about all of this today, and can be part of a dialogue which is somewhat opposed by both of our somewhat tribalist sides...

  Laci: [chuckles]

  Philip: …it gives us the chance to challenge each other, and so forth. Still, I'm curious to know whether this conversation is worth more or less to you compared to burning down the rainbow flag in front of Auróra on October 23.

  Laci: Look, whether or not we burned that flag will be decided by the police investigation. [This case is not being covered by the media any more, but to our knowledge — and according to Laci — there have been no major developments.] Nine of our members, coming from all around the country, Budapest or the countryside, were dragged into the police station. As of this moment I can’t tell you anything about that. We are suspected of burning it. But even if this would be the case, let them prove it first.

  Philip: So you’re denying that you burnt it?

  Laci: To be honest, I’m not going to say anything about this. Let the investigative authorities do their jobs, and we’ll find out. If this seriously is such a big deal to them, they can do their jobs. We did not resist being called in. We’re even happy to testify.

  One thing I don’t agree with, though, is the fact that nine of my fellow members have been dragged in; some of them were only prospective members, too. They were forced to leave their workplaces the second they [the authorities] came for them. This could have been easily solved if they were to be summoned; we are happy to cooperate in cases where we are suspects.

  Philip: I’m sorry, but you’ve awoken my curiosity. How would you describe the events of the 23rd? What happened that night, if there’s a question mark over the flag burning?

  Laci: That night, we had our march. Actually, a lot of people were accusing us of disturbing Jobbik’s event [a remembrance service marking the 1956 uprising against the Soviet Union]. That wasn’t us, though — we made an announcement on our website about this. On the other hand, we can’t judge those who decided to pester Jobbik’s turnaround [its move towards the centre-right], but by the time this was taking place our members were already at Corvin-Köz [a short walk from Auróra]. That’s where the entire event was held, we had our speeches there, our chants, and our remembrance ceremony.

  Philip: What happened after Corvin-Köz?

  Laci: After Corvin-Köz, we went home. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Some details may have slipped my mind, but the entire situation didn’t happen this way.

  Philip: So were you in front of Auróra that night, or weren’t you?

  Laci: We are not denying that we were in front of Auróra that night. Apparently certain imagery got on the wall that wasn’t there before, but that’s all I can say… We were in front of Auróra that night.

  Philip: Alright, let’s leave at that then.

  Laci: Let’s leave it to the police to find the truth.

  Philip: Sure. Alright, we talked a lot about normality and the perversion of normality. If I’m not mistaken, you have a Waffen SS tattoo on your upper arm. What I would like to find out is, to what extent is this part of this normality, and why?

  Laci: I don’t know how you found out about this. But yes, I have a tattoo which is a quote by Adolf Hitler: “To me there’s no other way, victory or death.” I think that brings the values of the movement to the point as well. Which I may have talked about earlier, or just briefly mentioned before but, even if we don’t achieve major breakthroughs in the future, we’ll still die standing up. That is what we believe in.

  Philip: Ironically enough, this is not so far away from a famous Ché Guevara quote. ["Better to die standing than to live on your knees."]

  Laci: But that’s the way it is, and no one can take this from us. Béla Incze just recently introduced me to a book when he was addressing the youth in an interview that was written by a leftie. Civil action and street presence aren’t a matter of ideology. We can easily adapt ideas from the left, to see what tools they use, so we are able to use them as well.

  Yes, I have that tattoo and I stand by it. For me there is no other way, that’s what we are here for, which is exactly what I was talking about for the last hour or hour and a half, to fight against these things. And then we’ll see what’s the end of this tunnel.

  Philip: By the way, to calm you down, the picture was on your Facebook page.

  Laci: Of course! You’re right. I just couldn’t remember. My tattoo artist posted that, actually.

  Philip: Don’t worry, I ain’t hiding behind those curtains.

  Laci: You’re good, you’re good.

  Philip: And if I’m correct here the picture was posted just around the same time that Légió was formed as well. Do you think that there’s a connection between these two? Now that you were part of this new group, which enabled you to change your appearance and allows you to get more deeply involved?

  Laci: Truth be spoken, this got stitched on me because of my personal creed. As of this moment I haven’t read up on Hitler as much as I’d like to, and probably will after uni. What’s also important to mention here is that I have other tattoos as well. Tattoos which, for example, remember the heroes of the “Breakthrough”. [This is the February 11, 1945 anniversary celebrated by Hungarian neo-Nazis each year, marking the attempt by Nazi German and allied Hungarian forces to break through the Soviet lines encircling Budapest. While the “Day of Honour" is marked with speeches in the city-centre, the "Breakthrough" is a 60-kilometre tour of the woods, following the soldiers’ route.]

  So to pinch these two together is false; I have these tattoos because I believe in them. This is in no way connected to the movement here; we don’t get any orders of the sort. Some of us don’t even like tattoos. Some of us don’t even have any tattoos at all. Others do, and they are not ashamed of them either.

  Philip: Once again, we have talked a lot about deviancy and abnormality. In contrast to this, how would you describe sanity or normality?

  Laci: I could once again describe it with the examples I gave you earlier. Family, for example. What we can’t accept either is that our appearance would be as shabby and torn as that of the liberal scum that hang at Auróra. With their purple dyed hair, I don’t think that what they are signalling towards me is what a positive personality they might have. One could argue that the opposite would be true.

  Philip: I’m sorry to interrupt here, but how did you arrive at this conclusion? What is it that makes purple hair in particular so threatening or unappealing?

  Laci: I wouldn’t call it threatening, I’m just saying that if you are a person who thinks of himself as a somewhat decent human being, then you wouldn’t appear in public like this. According to my ideology this is unacceptable. We even had problems of this nature at Jobbik as well. Two girls joined the organisation who needed to be reminded of the presence of the elderly, who aren’t necessarily the biggest fans of this. What deviancy is to me could best be described by the behaviour of these homosexuals: what they do, how they do it, stuff that simply isn’t normal to you. To me that’s what matters most.

  Philip: Now if i’m correct here, the stuff that is normal to you is the imagery on your skin, and the honour in your heart.

  Laci: Exactly so.

  Philip: Now, if “normality” in strict terms is a definition of moderation, to what extent do you expect others to treat you that way?

  Laci: Each and every human individual varies from the next one; even inside a movement you find a lot of different characters. I think that in every community there’s a certain number of ethical values which expect you not to look like a fool, for example. Naturally, we won’t limit anyone's personal freedom in the aspects of... what have you... what shoes he wants to wear that day, or what haircut he desires, and so on.

  Same goes for uni. I honestly couldn’t care less about how people dress there. I might stare, but I won’t spit on anyone, because that’s not my style. But I’ll have my opinion. It’s all stuff that I can’t identify with this on any scale.

  I mean, if you still want to colour your hair purple, fine — I just can’t identify with it. Even if someone appears in that particularly flamboyant style that gay people intend to have, I won’t call him a faggot for instance.

  Philip: How nice of you.

  Laci: No, no, no, you see, I can’t. I mean I usually refer to them as faggots or homosexuals, but if I’m already part of this movement I should be able to behave on the streets. It is in gestures like this in which we’re trying to distance ourselves from national radicalism, which we clearly aren’t part of anyway. We are a strictly functioning organisation in which everyone obeys the rules. Civic behaviour is one of them.

  Philip: Why did you decide to choose the militant, very disciplined, somewhat elitist segment of the far-right, over the associations of — let's say — Budaházy [the aforementioned György Budaházy, who attacked politicians with Molotov cocktails] and his “Hungarian Arrows”?

  Laci: If you look at Budaházy for an example, I can’t even say that I sympathize with them. Don’t get me wrong, I’m very happy that they exist, and that this group in particular is represented. But Gyuri Budaházy’s crew can’t seem to find a way forward, can’t develop. One has to understand the times we’re living in; they seem to struggle with that. Meanwhile we come from their movements, that’s where we sort of developed, and we’ve seen what’s necessary to be taken seriously.

  The night of the 23rd, for example, no one was smoking, no one was drunk or getting out of order. And to hear how threatening — or, to put it more accurately, scary our march was when we were chanting through the streets, that’s when I became really proud, because this shows to me that we’re doing something right.

  That’s what we’re being elitists for, to be that smart and physically prepared at the same time. This is very important to us, and I believe this must have been the same way Adolf Hitler’s Germany was operating at the time. He had very educated people who aside from being educated were also skilled in their field, and therefore could contribute something that would elevate their community to a higher rank. And all of that happened at the same time.

  Philip: So is that the blueprint for the movement? The military groups of Adolf Hitler’s Germany?

  Laci: To be honest, we rarely talk about what the blueprint would be. As I said not everyone worships Hitler the same way among us. Not everyone is convinced that he would be the proper role model of our movement. Even I have my reservations about this…

  Philip: Alright, what are your reservations about Adolf Hitler?

  Laci: The way he divided his political agenda comes to mind. The eastern plan or the so-called “Ostpolitik” which would conquer the Soviet Union…I fail to understand the reasoning behind that one. Or certain elements of the Final Solution which was executed by the Waffen SS where, for example, certain Rothschild bank employees, or even the entire Rothschild pack just could buy their way out if it and were let go. Whereas, in the meantime, they eliminated people who I wouldn’t have eliminated — babies or small children, for example. I don’t even see myself being capable of doing that, to be honest with you. Also his military dilettantism and stubbornness. He wouldn’t listen to his generals who were by far more competent than he was; he just wouldn’t listen, even when they were a lot smarter than him.

  Philip: How does it feel to know that a man who means so much to you would have dismissed you as a second-class citizen of inferior race? Somewhere on the same ranks of the Slavs behind the Aryans, the Germans, descendents of the German tribes and somewhere way down the line would be you. Does this make you angry sometimes?

  Laci: I think this needs to be adopted to the 21st century. One has to understand the times we’re living in. At that time, yes this mattered a great deal to Hitler — all the Aryan groups which reached from the Germans to the Swedes and other Scandinavians. Truth be told, he really didn’t think of Hungarians this way. Now, I mentioned earlier that I still haven’t found the time to read up on his idea. I still would love to read Mein Kampf, in order to find out what he was truly idolising. I obviously heard about his categories, I even heard that he only wanted to teach Hungarians how to read and write and that’s it. What’s true out of all of this, I frankly don't know until I study him further.

  Philip: Last summer, and please correct me if I’m messing up the dates here, you held a Racial Protection Conference...

  Laci: I think it was spring...

  Philip: ...Spring, then — which was hosted by Légió Hungária. Did you attend the event? And if so, can you tell me about it and what goes on at a conference like this?

  Laci: Yes, I was there. Betyársereg joined us there and their leader Zsolt Tyirityán had a presentation, and the head of our organisation Béla Incze held another one. By the way, independent youngsters were allowed to join in as well. As for the programme, I don’t remember a lot. But I remember Zsolt Tyirityán’s analogy that along party lines we’d actually be able to reach the same 30 percent of the votes which won Hitler — or more precisely, the National Socialist German Workers' Party — the election [the German federal election of July 1932]. They were legitimately elected and formed a coalition with Bismarck's party, and that’s how they rose to power. The premise of this was, that if it was possible then, it might be possible now. Depending, of course, on how neglectful or willing Hungarian society is today. Now, as for the rest, I honestly don’t remember much. This was nearly a year ago now. I vaguely remember the presentations, but the details have slipped my mind.

  Philip: So is this now a concrete goal of movements like Betyársereg or Légió Hungária to influence the Hungarian youth — or actually the whole of Hungary — in a direction that lays the foundation for a similar power grab?

  Laci: We’re not trying to get into power...

  Philip: Exactly! That's what I was going for. In the beginning, you said that you wouldn’t hold any aspirations of this nature. Now, in contrast to that, the only thing you remembered from the Racial Protection Conference is literally the presumed way to power.

  Laci: Right, but this idea came from Zsolt Tyirityán, who’s not a member of our organisation. He’s the leader of Betyársereg. Therefore, you could easily dismiss this entirely because it didn’t even come from us. Béla, for example, was quoting Julius Evola instead. [An anti-Semitic Italian philosopher popular with alt-right activists.]

  Look, we don’t want to reach power. It’s unthinkable to begin with that we would rise to power, and even if so, that would mean that we need to become a party. We don’t want to become a party. Let’s see what opportunities we’ll get, and focus on things we’re actually capable of achieving. That’s what we’ll busy ourselves with; we can’t do any more than that.

  Philip: Pheeeew! Alright, let’s talk just briefly about the “Day of Honour”, given that it wasn’t so long ago. Leading up to the event, we could hear a lot from the historian Péter Ungváry about the exact details and technicalities of the “Breakthrough” during which more than 20,000 men died. Why is this nevertheless such a symbolic date for you on which radical right-wingers gather from all over Europe in order to remember that day?

  Laci: [whispers] Far-right!

  Philip: [whispers] Far-right indeed, my apologies.

  Laci: If we look back in time, Budapest was surrounded by a blockade and was under siege. And what’s really important straight away is that among the soldiers who died were people who had nothing to do with ideology, they were humble men who wanted to defend their motherland. Of course, there were Waffen SS officials among them as well, soaked in the ideology, so to speak...

  Philip: Right, but Hungary at the time wasn’t a sovereign nation. It was under Nazi occupation, so those people weren’t really defending their home as much as they were protecting Nazi Germany…

  Laci: Some of them were, some of them were not. I’m sure that there were troops fighting for that, and I’m sure that there were men who fought against communism. I mean they didn’t really have the time to figure all of this out. In a fairly short amount of time they had to decide whether they surrender or try to break through the lines. There’s a huge moral difference between those two. If they were to capitulate, they certainly wouldn’t have become heroes, but they had a drive within them, a sense of purpose which I'm sure they had thought through. Or maybe they didn’t even need to think this through. And this is exactly why they have become such incredible heroes, because they “broke through”. Many of them caught a bullet the second they left the castle, but most of them still sacrificed their lives protecting their motherland against the Soviets.

  That’s why we think of them as heroes, and that’s why on February 11, which is the remembrance day, we light up their path with our candles. Thank god the weather was on our side this year, too. So we light up their way from Kapisztrán Square, through Ostrom Street, all the way to the Széna Square with candles by the side of the road, showing what they mean to all of us.

  People came from any number of groups, like the “Hungarian Royal Army”, or even civil pedestrians who joined them in acknowledging that heroic charisma. They wouldn’t give up even if that meant certain death. If I’m not mistaken, exactly 700 made it through to the woods behind Buda; everyone else died. [Historian Krisztián Ungvary believes that 700 survived this mission at best]. This to me is an astonishingly honourable act that they accomplished that day.

  Philip: Given that we mentioned the Nazi party briefly, let me ask you: in your own opinion, what’s the biggest difference between National Socialism and Communism? There’s a lot of similarities in their appearances, in their statecraft, the way they form a totalitarian state. So why is it your prime focus to defeat communism, and to champion national socialism and the NSDAP?

  Laci: Right, the two are completely different, it’s enough to look at their economic models for instance...

  Philip: One could say that actually, economically they are not that different from one another...

  Laci: Economically? Planned economy against capitalism? The National Socialists were pretty capitalist. Henry Ford was one of the biggest allies of Hitler, and it was no other than Hugo Boss who designed the SS uniforms... [Henry Ford, founder of the Ford motor company, was an outspoken anti-Semite. He received an award from the Nazi regime in 1938. The fashion label Hugo Boss meanwhile apologised for its Nazi past in 2011.]

  Philip: Right, but most of the companies got nationalised nevertheless…

  Laci: Of course they did…

  Philip: Projects focused on developing infrastructure, taxes got raised, and so on. These seem like pretty leftist ideas.

  Laci: That’s why “socialism” is included in its name. National Socialism — both of them were socialists, but economically speaking, the planned economy is completely different from even a mostly nationalised economy. In a plan-based economy everything is state-owned. Whereas this wasn’t the case on the other side.

  We can even look at its Hungarian offspring during the Rákosi period, when all of the attics were swept clean, because no one could own any private property. [Mátyás Rákosi was the de facto ruler of Communist Hungary from 1947 to 1956.] So there’s a huge difference between the two ideologies. The German, quote-unquote,“occupation”, didn’t start a massacre when they crossed the border into the country. But if you look at the communists, they randomly started killing anyone who was in the streets that day, and as if this wasn’t enough they raped women as well. So there’s a huge difference between their presence in the country.

  Philip: I give you that, there were huge differences in their presence. Ironically enough, out of all places, the concentration camp which was directly linked via the railroad to the extermination camp in Birkenau was built in Csorna. So to say that those people were living in peace and solidarity under Ferenc Szállási’s Hungarism, or during the occupation of the National Socialist is a bit abstracted. But this brings me right into my next question: where do you stand on Anti-Semitism? Which is a building block within the ideology…

  Laci: Yes.

  Philip: Also, about the concentration camp in Csorna: What experiences do you have from there? [Laci had visited this camp.] Or, what’s your attitude towards it? Are you supportive of its prior function, or do you think of it as a mournful moment within history?

  Laci: I can’t think of it as a mournful moment, not least because people are lying about the numbers. For example, I’m not sure if they really killed six million people there. [This is a classic example of Holocaust denial. For more context on Holocaust denial, see here.] Another thing is that four years ago, in 2016, I was in a synagogue on a Holocaust competition, where I saw it from the inside how these things are run. [It’s unclear what this event was; Philip thinks it may have been some kind of history contest.]

  I’m happy to have been there, because I saw such numbers and such propaganda which seemed to be pretty far from reality.

  And at least, as I already mentioned, there are those Jews who got away. Even today we have these enormously rich Jewish businessmen, and what happened was that exactly these Jews weren’t reached by the Final Solution. It was reaching everyone, even those who most likely wouldn’t be able to turn into something like this, but these people were able to elicit themselves out of the process. [Here, Laci combines Holocaust denial with a common strand of 21st-century anti-Semitism: the idea that Jewish business elites remain all-powerful.]

  This is where I find my problems with all of this, which is the reason why I can't dismiss the entire thing. I’m not denying the complete Holocaust, but I can’t dismiss it in its entirety, because there must have been reason behind it.

  This is something I'm gonna invest a lot of time into once I’m done with uni, because I don’t want to keep running my mouth about a subject I don’t know enough about yet. Like with Csorna, for example, which I’m gonna look into as well. But in the meantime I don’t want to spread any sort of dilettantism.

  Philip: But that’s okay, we’re talking about your opinion not the facts, we’re having a dialogue here. Anyway, if I'm understanding you correctly, what you’re proposing is that you’d like to bring the current elite to the same fate as of those who ended up in Auschwitz-Birkenau, because they got away last time, right?

  Laci: What?

  Philip: You’d like to bring the current economic elite to the fate of Auschwitz-Birkenau, because they got away last time, and that is what you thought that it has been lacking all along?

  Laci: Let’s not forget about the politics though. There’s Macron, and there’s Pompidou as well, and as professor Mráz said earlier in his lecture, if he would be professor Béla Pokol [a judge in the Hungarian constitutional court] he would have no problem saying that Pompidou was raised by the Rothschild Bank, after the era of De Gaulle. [Both current French president Emmanuel Macron and former president Georges Pompidou worked at the Rothschild bank, feeding the anti-Semitic trope about the close association between Judaism, banking and political power.]

  If you look into it, Macron comes from the same background. These people are constantly backed by someone in the background, who nourishes these people in order to spread the same ideology around the globe. Jewish businessmen are alive and well as the puppet masters. [Another allusion to George Soros.] And yeah, these people I can’t respect at all. If you have enough money in your hands, it's easy to accomplish anything you like, and those who have no money in their hands are left once again with no opportunities either.

  Philip: Right, but the influence of money is visible on every spectrum. The power of money in the political arena is undoubtedly there, but to say that it would only flow towards one direction, and to say that all the money comes from a Jewish hand, seems… I mean, the world is so much more complex than this.

  Laci: Okay, I'm not a big fan of Trump’s politics for example, but as I said I don’t like any politicians. Those who decide to get into big politics, I simply can’t respect them. Anyway, Soros said — and I’m not sure if this is true or not — but he said that Zuckerberg should be replaced by someone else, because that’s [Facebook] where Trump won his election. [Soros did indeed write a New York Times op-ed arguing that Zuckerberg should not be in charge of Facebook.]

  I mean, he was backing Hillary from the beginning and throughout her campaign, but they didn’t succeed. That’s where you see how deeply the Jews are involved in big politics, and what influence they have or which world leader will be elected, then that’s a pretty scary thing to witness. To have that influence, which enables him to control people too, who will have to obey if they get elected because of his media support. [For more context on rising anti-Semitism across Europe, see this article.]

  Philip: But Zuckerberg is Jewish as well, isn’t he?

  Laci: Yes.

  Philip: So what are we exactly speaking of here?

  Laci: Right. [It is unclear whether he heard Philip’s comment.]

  Philip: Anyway, since we’re talking about this, there’s this thing I’ve always been curious about. In some anti-Semitic groups, sooner or later a pro-Palestinian wing pops up which is supporting radical right-wing Islam. What’s your opinion on this? Are you supportive of jihadists as well, for example? Do you think you guys could work together?

  Laci: Now, the last one is a strong no. There’s no chance that we’re working together with them. We stick to our Christian culture and values. I’ve got to say I really respect the Muslims, actually a couple of them live in my dorm too. I respect their sense of community, I can’t say anything bad about them, it’s a pretty cohesive community.

  So there’s this Israel-Palestine conflict, which I already heard a lot about as well as their wars. So after World War II, due to a UN order they had to create the sovereign country of Israel, which was mapped on the territory of Palestine, and conflicts go on till this day. A former teacher of mine who’s been there told me about the wall on which if they see a Palestinian they shoot him instantly, apparently there’s a pretty strong military presence.

  From this perspective, I definitely support the Palestinians, because they’ve lost their home completely. It’s true that Israel is a fairly small country but considering their military and the IT sector it’s a very well-developed nation, for which they can thank the Americans.

  I don’t want to manufacture conspiracy theories here, but there must be something going on in the background. I don’t think it would be a coincidence that a great deal of Jews moved to the States where they live their lives, where they do their deeds. [Again, Laci raises the far-right trope of Jews exercising unseen power and supposedly pulling the strings behind the scenes.] I don’t want to jump into conspiracy theories, but there must be a reason why they support politics the way they do, then they get a sovereign Jewish state… So yeah.

  Philip: Alright, I think we’ve nearly ended our time slot. We got to tap into a number of things here. My last question, probably, would be why you decided to come. Why did you think it might be important that people hear your thoughts? And how do you picture your future?

  Laci: I thought it would be important to come to show the people what it’s like to have these views and how someone would argue for them. People might listen and understand why he’s different, why he’s saying what he’s saying, and some people might even develop a liking towards these ideas — although, regarding the last part, I have my doubts. And what was the second part again? How do I see my future?

  Philip: Exactly.

  Laci: Well certainly not in the field in which I’m now, meaning political science. I also would love to move back to Győr-Moson-Sopron County, which will already happen this summer. So that’s where I’d like to continue with this, and this is where I most likely will contribute to support Légió Hungária’s efforts, that’s where I’ll be seeing to my duties as a member. All in all, the priority remains achieving our goals that we set for ourselves, and to fight for them, and that’s what I’ll be doing with all my heart.

  Philip: Okay, one final post-last question, given that you do study Political Science at ELTE [Eötvös Loránd Tudományegyetem. Both Philip and Laci graduated from this Budapest university in June 2020] — and you mentioned somewhere in the middle that you’d like to challenge yourself with opposing ideas to yours — then I only presume that this is more or less happening as we speak, isn’t it?

  Laci: That’s a really good point you’re making here right now, because in my first year I didn’t have such a plan, but by my second year I came to realise that I, quote-unquote, got to know my “enemies”. I mean, we didn’t learn much about Hitler, but we did learn a whole lot about Marx especially in... I can’t remember the name of the subject... I want to say Political Socialization?

  Philip: Justifiably we didn’t learn a lot about Hitler, we did learn however a lot of Carl Schmitt and Habermas. [Philip stresses that he meant to say Heidegger, not Habermas. “Please don’t air this with poor Habermas taking the fall,” he said.]

  Laci: You’re right, but not enough.That’s the reason why I know so little about them. We obviously learn a whole lot more from different ideologies, but that’s fine. This way I get to know their work and understand why they thought the way they did, or even why the people who attend the classrooms believe in them. Which most of the time are the complete opposite of my interest.

  And as you said, which was a nice thing that you brought to my attention, at least this way I got to know how the enemy works and got to prepare myself.

  Philip: So were all these books just a practice round? In some twisted Sun Tzu-ish technique of The Art of War where you’d find the weak spots of each “ism”? Or did you genuinely find some books which raised your interest about something?

  Laci: First of all I was curious about the mentality of Budapest — how a teacher from there would teach me new ideas — as well as mostly the first part. I remember a class with Attila Antall who was comparing the benefits and weaknesses of liberalism to other ideologies.

  So you were able to find those spots right there, plus given that this was all very theoretical, it gave me a chance to compare those with the real world as well, which is always very important to me. And that’s what I really started to compare. Not necessarily each theory's weaknesses and advantages to themselves, but the reality to the ideology, and the other way around. That’s why I loved comparative politics, because we constantly compared something to something else.

  Philip: Alright Laci, I’ve got to say that this was a very substantial and interesting interview, I’m very thankful that we’ve got to know you.

  Laci: Thank you for having me.

  Philip: That’s one of the many things that makes it worth studying at ELTE, because you’ll meet a completely diverse set of people, which helps us to understand each other a little bit better.

  Laci: Exactly so.

  Philip: And to be part of a discussion which helps us to grow together as a society. Thank you so much for your time.

  Laci: Thanks for having me.

  Philip: Thanks to anybody out there listening to us, and keep listening to The Europeans.

  Laci: Thank you everyone.